Why so many 4X4s?

[Parksy]

if it was not for the Bankers, right about now we would be in an even bigger mess. As for the Unemployed..over the last 13 years there has been a massive increase in the numbers of long term unemployed, backed up by a benefits system that made it unattractive to go out to work, indeed they could "earn" more by staying at home.

The banking industry created the artificial financial boom for their own benefit and this has resulted in financial meltdown with banks having to be bailed out by the taxpayer.
Who allowed this situation to develop?
Politicians!

Who introduced this benefits system which made it unattractive to go to work?
Politicians!

Those unemployed who have lost there jobs are certainly not being demonised and many are actively trying to find work. These people deserve the government help they get. I my self faced losing my job in 2009 along with 30 others as i battled to save the company, luckily we came through it... but only just.
In the UK 6million earn their living directly from the public purse, 3m from manufacturing and the rest seem to be stuck in retail or banking.
The only sectors making money and earning foreign income are the Bankers and Manufacturing. We can no longer continue to support the "benefits" society we now have.

The best of luck to anyone actively seeking work in the current economic climate, they will need it!
Youth unemployment is at record levels and there are very few opportunities for youngsters to find permanent full time jobs. Of course the young are encouraged to go to university to obtain meaningless degrees which keeps them off the unemployment statistics for a few years. The student loan system means that in effect young people end up paying their own 'dole' money.
The 6m earning their living from the public purse do so as a result of government job creation schemes, again to disguise the true level of unemployment in this country.
Manufacturing in the UK is facing an uphill struggle against foreign competitors and the skills base in manufacturing and engineering has shrunk drastically. Instead of obtaining 'real' degrees in engineering, students are allowed to waste time gaining degrees in media studies or performance arts.
The chickens are coming home to roost with the benefits system, there has to be unpalatable societal changes but politicians of all parties have mismanaged our economy to bring us to this situation.
There is no point in blaming those who claim benefits, we should all be blaming politicians who created the situation in the first place.

The same politicians who tried to lay the blame for what they once called 'global warming' on those of us who reserve the right to drive whichever car we choose in order to bully us and to tax us more.

 

[JonnyG]

I honestly did not realise how many people on this forum live in Mayfair, Chelsea Kensington ect ect.
No government tried to demonise the working classes! But what was at issue a decade or so ago was these and other Areas of the largest collection of humans on these isle, had a far far far greater amount of people owning Huge Vehicles and indeed extremely pollutant under the road condition around them.They spent so much time in cold mode Vehicles in these "urban" conditions that they would pump out the equivalent of 500plus grammes of CO2 in less than a mile of driving! even more if sitting there in traffic.If and As the streets aint that vehicle friendlily to start with, then these type of vehicles made it even harder for traffic to flow.And that's why they called them "Chelsea tractors" as typically 1000s of these vehicles did the school run or local shop run of merely a mile, or so, on tight congested roads all the time pumping out pollutants at 3 times what the average car did, in such a tight and highly dense populated areas.!
You do not need to be a tree huggar to see the insanity of it!
Note. they were never called "caravanner tractors" or anything that could offend the more responsible among us.so I always find it strange at how defensive users of these vehicles become..Unless that is your area and use matches that of the "Chelsea tractor"
There have been benefits you know, whilst cars have been getting better and better on fuel consumption, it seems manufacturers have made an even greater effort toward their 4X4. So even users have befitted, surely that should actually please users?

 

[caravannewbie]

Mmmmm........ no I don't know what to do. Just collected a Garland 148 which is 830kg ex works (1100Kg max laden).

I picked it up with my Focus, 1.8 petrol and even on the motorway it was struggling on any sort of incline. I have always liked the freelanders and started looking at 5 door ones about 1999-2000 sort of age for a couple of thousand. Would I maybe be better upgrading to an estate maybe?

Pulled our Trailer tent with it and you hardly know you are towing it but really feel the caravan behind it.

Any help would be good!

Caravan Newbie.

 

[Surfer]

I honestly did not realise how many people on this forum live in Mayfair, Chelsea Kensington ect ect.
No government tried to demonise the working classes! But what was at issue a decade or so ago was these and other Areas of the largest collection of humans on these isle, had a far far far greater amount of people owning Huge Vehicles and indeed extremely pollutant under the road condition around them.They spent so much time in cold mode Vehicles in these "urban" conditions that they would pump out the equivalent of 500plus grammes of CO2 in less than a mile of driving! even more if sitting there in traffic.If and As the streets aint that vehicle friendlily to start with, then these type of vehicles made it even harder for traffic to flow.And that's why they called them "Chelsea tractors" as typically 1000s of these vehicles did the school run or local shop run of merely a mile, or so, on tight congested roads all the time pumping out pollutants at 3 times what the average car did, in such a tight and highly dense populated areas.!
You do not need to be a tree huggar to see the insanity of it!
Note. they were never called "caravanner tractors" or anything that could offend the more responsible among us.so I always find it strange at how defensive users of these vehicles become..Unless that is your area and use matches that of the "Chelsea tractor"
There have been benefits you know, whilst cars have been getting better and better on fuel consumption, it seems manufacturers have made an even greater effort toward their 4X4. So even users have befitted, surely that should actually please users?

So dear tree hugger, are we to assume that of the 70-80 active volcanoes part fo nature, none spew out CO2. Of these 80 odd volcanoes 5 are in Europe and this figure excludes Iceland and thse 5 are less than 1000 miles from London? Also the figure of 70-80 volcanoes does not include undersea volcanoes.
I would think that a volcano does more damage to the atmosphere in one day than Man does in a decade so that argument does not wash with me. I agree that it is not good for factories to be spewing tons of black soot all over the neighbourhood and that we shoudl be recycling, but man's impact is hardly noticable in comparison to a volcano.
A fancy large saloon car probably produces more CO2 than a 4 x 4 and also has a larger footprint. Anyway whichever way you look at it , it is an individuals choice what they want to drive and nto for any of us to say.

 

[emmerson]

I drive a 4x4 cos I can afford to, and I want to, and it's got b*gger all to do with anyone else!

 

[Steve L]

Easy tiger ( your eminence).
I believe a 4X4 has it's place and having used several for towing 3500Kg trailers, I can say they do a good job as a tow tug. As for parking most are a pain in the butt. Spaces too small, not enough room to turn round unless you do a 66 point turn.

I saw the optimum chelsea tractor in Hereford morrisons car park yesterday. A toyota land cruiser with huge desert tyres, raised 6" suspension, huge roof rack with canvas jungle tent on top, 6 jerry cans on there too and a 4ft leg jack strapped on the back door.

Hell !! I didn't know shopping had got that bad

With all the un-necessary clobber adding weight and windage to it, no wonder it needed extra fuel capacity.

Having in the past used my Morris Minor van to go up and down the 14th centurary coach road on Dinmore hill as it comes out at the back of my parent's place, I can't see where the Chelsea tractor was going.

 

[emmerson]

Steve, but that's carrying the topic to extremes! My 4x4 is a standard driven-out-of-the-showroom (along time ago) Range Rover. The sort of vehicle you described is for playing off-road, not normally used for shopping! (except perhaps by posers)

 

[Philspadders]

regarding emmissions from, 4 x 4s, we need to clarifiy what happens with catalytic conveter. A CAT needs to be at around 500 degrees c to start working. Up to this temp you converter does very little. So even those little htachbacks on the school run, or a smart car nipping 1/2 mile to the shops is as polluting as a large 4 x 4.

t can take 20 mins to get up to temperature in urban traffic.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Phil,

I find your last posting is a little misleading "So even those little htachbacks on the school run, or a smart car nipping 1/2 mile to the shops is as polluting as a large 4 x 4." Are you saying that a small car that uses less fuel per mile (or half mile) than a much larger car like a 4x4 produces the same amout of exhaust gassesand this pollution?

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Mmmmm........ no I don't know what to do. Just collected a Garland 148 which is 830kg ex works (1100Kg max laden).

I picked it up with my Focus, 1.8 petrol and even on the motorway it was struggling on any sort of incline. I have always liked the freelanders and started looking at 5 door ones about 1999-2000 sort of age for a couple of thousand. Would I maybe be better upgrading to an estate maybe?

Pulled our Trailer tent with it and you hardly know you are towing it but really feel the caravan behind it.

Any help would be good!

Caravan Newbie.

Hi Caravan Newbie,

Perhaps you should have started a new post with this one. Anyway my opinion (which may get shot down) is that 1.8 petrol engines are not the best for pulling any caravan. Rather than worrying about having an estate I would consider buying a diesel. I made a big mistake a couple of years ago when I bought a 2 litre petrol Citroen Picasso to pull a van the same weight as yours and could not believe the difference from a similar diesel. Petrol will get you there in a similar time but you will be forever changing gear and revving near the red line at every hill. Not something I want to do.

 

[Philspadders]

Small cars on short runs never acheive high mpg due to the nature of the journeys, schoool runs etc. Cats never get to operating temperature and just kick out all that Nox and Co. The small diesels are even worse as the DPF never get a chance to flash off and particulates build up and are flushed directly from the exhaust.

 

[Surfer]

Small cars on short runs never acheive high mpg due to the nature of the journeys, schoool runs etc. Cats never get to operating temperature and just kick out all that Nox and Co. The small diesels are even worse as the DPF never get a chance to flash off and particulates build up and are flushed directly from the exhaust.

Spot on. The DPF is one reason to be very careul when buying a second hand diesel and os also the reason by the prices of second hand diesels between 1 and 5 years are low.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Phil,

I'm sorry but you seem to be evading the question I asked you,

your stated "So even those little htachbacks on the school run, or a smart car nipping 1/2 mile to the shops is as polluting as a large 4 x 4."

Now that suggests you believe a small hatchback creates as much pollutant by volume or weight as a larger vehicle undertaking the same journey in the same conditions.

If that is your position, you are going to find it very difficult to convince any reasonable person you are right.

 

[dannyr]

Steve, but that's carrying the topic to extremes! My 4x4 is a standard driven-out-of-the-showroom (along time ago) Range Rover. The sort of vehicle you described is for playing off-road, not normally used for shopping! (except perhaps by posers)

I use my disco for everyday use as well as offroading,it is also a awesome towing vehicle,i don't consider my self as a poser/sites/practicalcaravan.com/files/images/medium_shiney%20and%20caravan%202_0.jpg

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I've got a Sorento. Before that I had a 2l diesel auto Passat estate.
I'm pleased to say by changing it it was the best move I've done since caravanning. Not only is it as comfortable as the Passat it gives one greater peace of mind, a better view whilst driving, step in/step out access instead of driving in the almost foetal position with your ass inches from the road, plenty of room for caravanning equipment plus the two dogs and respite for my dicky back.
I've just put fuel in this week, the first since New Years Eve, so by that this 4x4 tree killing polluter releases less CO2s into the atmostphere than most saloon drivers. It also makes me laugh when people try to lecture others about polluting the environment when they are involved in the lorry transport business. Talk about pots and kettles

They need to get real and take a peek over a bridge parapet by the M6 or most motorways for that matter. That is what's called pollution, lorries nose to tail as far as the eye can see

Regarding the comment about driving a 4x4 being a machismo trait I'm past that stage of life. It's the boy racers who drive around towns with windows down and ghetto blasters in the boot or the sporty gent who drives around in his flash car with hood down. They are the ones who treat their vehicles as penile extensions

To sum up we would have a Ford Ka if we never had the caravan or dogs. We haven't though so it's my choice of vehicle because I pay. When I need a sub to buy fuel for it, or even another 4x4, and ask a tree hugger to lend me a shilling then, and only then, can they tell me where to shove the 4x4 ... heh! heh! heh!

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

I've got a Sorento. Before that I had a 2l diesel auto Passat estate.

good for you LB and long may it do as good a job as the old passat did. But thats the point of the OP while the choice of tow car is a personal thing it is not the ONLY choice of tow car available some would have you believe that it is??.
the tow car section is full of posts about what type of 4x4 should one get instead of wether one is needed at all ok so if you tow a bungalow on wheels it MAY be the only choice. But a lot of vanners have equipment with a tow weight of under 1200kg and the choice of tow car is open to most types of vehicles the list is endless.

What gets me is the owners of 4x4s who seem to have to justify why they have one? an inch of snow or a fortnight of rain and its out with the look how good my car is backed up with claims of my car polutes less than a ka on a short run down to the shops and someone allways complains about the cost, turning any sensible debate into a slanging match about treehuggers and unfair tax systems. The truth is big vehicles cost more than smaller ones so get over it.
I am no stranger to running big cars the cost and hassle of running the trans-am in the 90s was prohibative never mind the cost today and as for towing with it "no comment" better with a escourt 1.6. Some have mentioned the ground clearance as a plus point, sorry dont agree ok so the car will runover any obsticle but the mover motors wont and neither will the jocky wheel.

personally I prefer towing with a smaller vehicle and like the feeling of having the van on the back its reassuring and is a constant reminder that it is there, ok so I plan my route better avioding steep hills narrow bridges and the like but thats part of the fun. The time factor is also unimportant it does take longer to get there so what it is all part of the holiday. But after we arrive and unhitch the van we are back to 60mpg for touring round the area were in. But that is my choice other see it differently and thats fine by me.

the comment above was genuine I am glad elbee is pleased with his 4x4 but that does not detract from the fact that the Passat was a damn good towcar and did the job. however I also noticed a comment about having just put fuel in it the first since new year so I assume from that that it is not used as much as the "old passat" a telling statement all on its own??.

colin

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Hi ya ol' tyke

To be honest I'm not really bothered about climate change, global warming or whatever the latest title is given by the greens. I realise I should be but what emissions this country puts out compared to the erupting volcanoes, non complying nations like India, USA, China and Russia is negligible. The climate scientists did themselves no favours after being proven to be lying to carry their agenda.
If you ask me if I care about the deforestation of the rain forests the answer is yes. Apart from their slash and burn creating more pollution, opening up swathes of land for agriculture which due to the forests thin top layer of soil is only good for growing crops for one year the land is then sterile. Numerous indigenous tribes have been uprooted but who cares, they probably wont live long anyway because they have no anti-bodies to the infections they will catch from the land robbers.
Again in the foothills of the Himilayas forests have been felled denuding the landscape. Whereas before the felling the trees acted as giant sponges soaking up the monsoon rains but now they have gone. The soils have been washed down the rivers ending up blocking the river delta's so we have the annual horrors of floods, starvation and death.
So as you can see ya ol' tyke, my lil 4x4 will have no affect on what's going on in the big world and neither will the U.K.s.
Another point before I finish is why should I listen to bigots like Bono when he pays £1k to fly his hat from the UK to Italy

 

[Parksy]

..................What gets me is the owners of 4x4s who seem to have to justify why they have one? an inch of snow or a fortnight of rain and its out with the look how good my car is backed up with claims of my car polutes less than a ka on a short run down to the shops and someone allways complains about the cost, turning any sensible debate into a slanging match about treehuggers and unfair tax systems. The truth is big vehicles cost more than smaller ones so get over it...............

Owners of 4x4s have to continue to 'justify why they have one' because of the relentless anti 4x4 scapegoating propaganda from the media led by the leading climate change zealots at the BBC.
In this country we are supposed to have freedom of choice and as a 4x4 owner I won't explain or justify my own choice to anybody. I bought my car and I pay the running costs!
There are no labels given to owners of other large cars but 4x4's are called 'Chelsea Tractors', the drivers are subject to all sorts of unfounded accusations and slurs but it's the same old story isn't it?
The 'anti' brigade don't actually have a rational argument so as per usual they resort to the tried and tested method of name calling, scapegoating and villification which could be why 4x4 owners are becoming quick to defend their freedom of choice.
This topic doesn't look as though it was started by a 4x4 owner so maybe the fact that 4x4 owners are continually being asked to justify their choice also has something to do with it.
How often to we see a post asking 'Why so many Mondeos?'

 

[emmerson]

"Why so many 4x4s?" Dead simple - cos us what's got 'em, loves 'em!

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi ya ol' tyke

REST OF WAFFLE DELETED

LB. you seemed to have missed the point of my post

it was not a comment about your choice of tow vehicle but a comment about the fact that for years the passat DID do a good job of towing your van your reasons for changing it are your own.
my point was that people with smaller or lightweight vans do not need a 4x4 to tow it with but anyone reading the posts in tow cars could get the impression that one was needed to tow any van as most of the posters extol the virtues of different makes without regards to any alternatives, a newbie or someone looking at buying a tow car would then assume you needed a 4x4 for towing that is not the case as most cars will tow a van of under 1100kg.

parksy I mentioned the fact that some 4x4 owners have to justify their choice of tow vehicle and then immediatly you start justiyfing the use of 4x4s as a tow vehicle, ."I rest my case"
I think a sign I saw in the rear window of a jeep just about sums up the situation it read " I use this vehicle to tow my caravan so P*** **f and bother someone else"

have a nice day

colin

 

[Lutz]

Returning to "oldagetraveller's" opening comment in this thread and his observation that one sees so many more 4x4's in the UK towing than in mainland Europe, this is because there is no such thing as the 85% weight ratio recommendation there so a lot more people tow right at the manufacturer's towload limit, which could be 100% or more. A secondary, but perhaps related reason is that caravans on the Continent are generally used less regularly - often just once or twice a year, thus making it harder to justify the purchase a car that is any bigger or heavier than absolutely necessary for the few number of times it is going to be used as a towing vehicle. Also, there is no real equivalent of CL sites, making it less necessary to pull the caravan over a muddy field.
In other words, the situation on the Continent is rather different.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all
good answer Lutz and probably the one the OP was getting at. Here in the UK the choice of towcar seems to be an emotive subject for some reason but your right a lot of caravans do only get used a couple of times a year and with rising costs the use of 4x4s as tow cars can and will become prohibative. One other point also is here in the uk we do like our bungalows on wheels with as many toys onboard as possible strange then that the towcar of the year award goes to vehicles like the passat, the octavia, (passat in different clothes) vectra focus, and such like. but continue to see 4mtr 2 berth vans being pulled by LDs and sorentos.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

the comment above was genuine I am glad elbee is pleased with his 4x4 but that does not detract from the fact that the Passat was a damn good towcar and did the job. however I also noticed a comment about having just put fuel in it the first since new year so I assume from that that it is not used as much as the "old passat" a telling statement all on its own??.

colin

Hi ya ol' tyke, I was just posting generally in my above comment hence no quote but I will now respond to your post.
Yes, the Passat was a good car but that was when I had the Abbey. Regarding towing it wasn't what I'd call perfect because I was towing at about 92% and when one of those flat nosed vans passed me I knew it. It was even worse if catching up with or being overtaken by a car transporter. Apart from the fact that it had been in 3 times to have the turbo fixed because I kept losing power it was time for it to go when deciding to buy a new van which was larger and heavier.
Now that I'm towing a larger van with a more suitable tow car neither flat nosed vans or car transporters bother me hence my comment about peace of mind. This doesn't mean that I ignore the law, I still stick to the appropriate speed limit.
I'm sorry to say that you are wrong with your "telling statement all on its own" because due to life changes and it being winter I don't use a vehicle as much as I did with the Passat although in the coming months it will be used just as much as that vehicle only I will have the van on the back, 98 days away in total so far

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

A secondary, but perhaps related reason is that caravans on the Continent are generally used less regularly - often just once or twice a year, thus making it harder to justify the purchase a car that is any bigger or heavier than absolutely necessary for the few number of times it is going to be used as a towing vehicle. Also, there is no real equivalent of CL sites, making it less necessary to pull the caravan over a muddy field.
In other words, the situation on the Continent is rather different.

I apologise but I hadn't read Lutz's post before I made mine.
In my comment that so far we have 98 days booked and 4 of them are CLs gives credence to his post. And yes, when we are away for 4 weeks at a time we do like a few home comforts

 

[xtrailman]

The best combination for towing i have EVER had was towing a 950kg caravan with a 1.6 90bhp Caviler.
That car literally dragged the caravan as i wanted, its presence was hardly noticeable.

Their is absolutely no doubt that keeping the caravan car ratio as LOW as possible helps keep the car more in control, assuming the caravan loading is correct etc.

Unfortunately the ever increasing weight of my caravans has also led to an ever increasing tow car weight, in a vain attempt to get back to that original, "car is in command" set up of old.

My new caravan on the back of the xtrail comes out at 90%, less than ideal in my opinion.
But i'll see how it goes, maybe a reduction in towing speed could be on the cards.
Or a heavier tow car, X3 ,sorento perhaps.