Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

[Dustydog]

No they won't!

They may be using different materials making and making new vehicles differently which offering greater range, science of the amount of energy needed to move people and goods won't have changed, but there is no reason why todays vehicles will be redundant.

Older vehicles may not be used for longer journeys, but there will most likely be some people who don't need 3 of 4 hundred miles of range, or they might be used for second cars for shopping or Doctors, or school runs.

The science of the energy needed to travel isn't going to change, so its always going to be compromise between weight and range.

Thanks Prof
I was just wondering how today’s EV will compare with today’s ICE average age. As far as I can see both types will corrode , be subject to MOTs etc. Will an EV last longer in your opinion and May I ask why? Just curious.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... Replacement batteries are unusual as cells can be replaced. They have a very long life.

It reminds me of old joe's hammer, He's had it for 55 years and served him ell. Its only had 6 new handles and two new heads!

If all six cells in a battery have been replaced even at different times - its no longer the original battery.

 

[RogerL]

Thanks Prof
I was just wondering how today’s EV will compare with today’s ICE average age. As far as I can see both types will corrode , be subject to MOTs etc. Will an EV last longer in your opinion and May I ask why? Just curious.

EVs will inevitably have more electronics than IC cars - that's one helluva weak link.

 

[Dustydog]

It reminds me of old joe's hammer, He's had it for 55 years and served him ell. Its only had 6 new handles and two new heads!

If all six cells in a battery have been replaced even at different times - its no longer the original battery.

What happened to Trigger’s broom😜😜

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks Prof
I was just wondering how today’s EV will compare with today’s ICE average age. As far as I can see both types will corrode , be subject to MOTs etc. Will an EV last longer in your opinion and May I ask why? Just curious.

I haven't fully read the item Clive has posted, but even without the wisdom of that, As time has gone by the vehicle manufacturers have radically improved the rust protection we see on motor vehicles, and as thee same basic construction processes will still be used, bodywork and many fittings will last at least as long as recent car products.

Secondly the Drive train is a far simpler system and not subjected to the vibration from the reciprocating engine, so durability is likely to be improved. In many EV's there no clutch plate to wear out, and even in my own Hybrid, becasue teh control system is so advanced, changing gears is achieved more efficiently reducing clutch wear. Not to mention fewer parts subjected to high temperatures and fluids that accelerate corrosion. Even the regenerative braking will reduce the production of abrasive brake dust.

Obviously several aspects do depend on the manufacturers choices of components and processes, but I think we have gone past the horror stories of teh 70's and 80's where Datsun & Honda's engines rarely wore out but the bodies dissolved as you watched.

I have no doubt that many of todays EV's could still be around in 20 or more years and still offering reliable service.

With regards to electronics, I know how much research does go into some of these car systems. In designing and building to meet the to meet accepted standards the reliability of the solid state equipment is actually very good, and where a system fails, its far more frequently a mechanical component that compromises the system rather than the actual electronic components.

Even based on the comparatively small number of EV's on our roads at the moment, evidence from repair shops and manufacturers are showing the EV's are noticeably more reliable than their ICE equivalents. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but taken as an average EV's are a good long term investment, and are likely to be become more so as mass production ramps up, and the charging infrastructure improves.

 

[JezzerB]

You only have to look at Nissan Leafs and Tesla S-the early ones are still going strong and some Teslas are covering well over 100k miles reliably-there was a screen issue but there's a fix I understand-not heard of motors going! And batteries are lasting longer than expected too.

 

[RogerL]

You only have to look at Nissan Leafs and Tesla S-the early ones are still going strong and some Teslas are covering well over 100k miles reliably-there was a screen issue but there's a fix I understand-not heard of motors going! And batteries are lasting longer than expected too.

Internet searches regarding EV reliability can be misleading - the Nissan Leaf has frequent battery issues with overheating, but that's in the southern USA where daily temperatures are considerably higher than the UK.

 

[JezzerB]

Internet searches on anything can be misleading but often where there's smoke there's fire-and there is a lot of research and forums out there that confirm what I've said-and what you have said too. Never trust one source but read round as much as you can was what I was and what i did teach my classes! Although the leaf battery and whole drive train have proved to be mega reliable-albeit range is reducing with age possibly worse than most EVs-simply because of what you've said-it isn't jus thot climes. It is a well researched fact that the Leaf has a very 'basic' battery management /cooling system which they knew about but did to save money-it was of course one of the first affordable Evs-the battery is air cooled meaning even in the temperate uk long hard fast journeys followed by rapid charging caused the battery to overheat and the car go into limp mode to protect it-leaving owners charging very very slowly and driving slowly too! Unlike BMW who on the Mini and i3 have installed a very sophisticated battery management system-that never lets the battery go below a set amount or charge over a set amount-negating this 20-80 rule that seems bandied around and ensuring the battery is at optimum temperature and the cells balanced alwaays-we plug ours in set it to condition for departure and not only is the car warm or cool depending on the outside but mains power warms the battery to optimum temp to give improved range-ie the car isn't having to do it on the move on its own power-(bit like an ice warming up with a rich mix/fast idle i suppose)! If you watch the making of programme on Chanel 4 you'd see that the Mini SE radiator is very large and collant content much larger than the ice-to cool motor and battery. Tesla have one of the most
advance d battery management systems-hence their long life -he updates the software to reduce the buffers as people in current cars are mobile guinea pigs-basically increasing the upper charge limit or lowering the lower safe zone as he finds batteries are 'doing better' than expected!

 

[otherclive]

Internet searches on anything can be misleading but often where there's smoke there's fire-and there is a lot of research and forums out there that confirm what I've said-and what you have said too. Never trust one source but read round as much as you can was what I was and what i did teach my classes! Although the leaf battery and whole drive train have proved to be mega reliable-albeit range is reducing with age possibly worse than most EVs-simply because of what you've said-it isn't jus thot climes. It is a well researched fact that the Leaf has a very 'basic' battery management /cooling system which they knew about but did to save money-it was of course one of the first affordable Evs-the battery is air cooled meaning even in the temperate uk long hard fast journeys followed by rapid charging caused the battery to overheat and the car go into limp mode to protect it-leaving owners charging very very slowly and driving slowly too! Unlike BMW who on the Mini and i3 have installed a very sophisticated battery management system-that never lets the battery go below a set amount or charge over a set amount-negating this 20-80 rule that seems bandied around and ensuring the battery is at optimum temperature and the cells balanced alwaays-we plug ours in set it to condition for departure and not only is the car warm or cool depending on the outside but mains power warms the battery to optimum temp to give improved range-ie the car isn't having to do it on the move on its own power-(bit like an ice warming up with a rich mix/fast idle i suppose)! If you watch the making of programme on Chanel 4 you'd see that the Mini SE radiator is very large and collant content much larger than the ice-to cool motor and battery. Tesla have one of the most
advance d battery management systems-hence their long life -he updates the software to reduce the buffers as people in current cars are mobile guinea pigs-basically increasing the upper charge limit or lowering the lower safe zone as he finds batteries are 'doing better' than expected!

Thank you an interesting post, I wonder if the newer Leaf models with extended range have a more advanced battery management system, they probably do as Nissan will have drawn on experience with the first Leaf when developing the Mk 2. As an aside my phone only charges to 80% if on during the night. I notice this if I get up particular early as I get a message that battery charge is being managed. If I get up around my normal time it will be at 100%.

 

[Ern]

Many fork-lift trucks are diesel- or LPG-powered - just sayin'.

 

[ProfJohnL]

History show that most models of car tend to develop some faults, and sometimes the pattern of faults becomes a characteristic of the particular model. And I am certain that EV's will continue to show similar traits, and whilst we shouldn't ignore those particular issues, they should be viewed in their proper context.

So for example the common story of difficulties with the leaf's battery makes the news becasue it is common for the Leaf, but in the context of evidence from most other models of EV, it is an exception, and becasue it is now well known, and the reasons for it are also well know, its unlikely to be repeated by Nissan or any other mainstream car producer.

The Leaf experience should not be used as the (edit) only model for EV battery life expectancy predictions.

 

[JezzerB]

Unfortunately Nissan didn't put a battery management system in the new Leaf-however they have changed the battery chemistry to combat the issue-since the Father in Law gave up driving and sold his I 've not been following the forum -but not seen any major complaints of the new one!

 

[Dustydog]

Intrigued to work out the cost of running my two EVs , I found this rather enlightening article from Which? Hope it’s ok to show here? Apologies now if it isn’t.

Those using Rapid and Ultra Rapid chargers (the fastest way to get electricity into your car) are particularly at risk from paying more than their fossil fuel counterparts. As an example, our lab tests show that medium-sized electric hatchbacks like the VW id.3 use an average of 20.38kwh per 100km in our tests. That means a car this size will use 2951.9kWh over 9,000 miles - the typical pre-covid annual mileage. If you were to pay 38p per kWh or more to charge it – and many rapid or ultra-rapid chargers cost more than this – you’d pay £1,121.71 over a year. That’s more costly than the equivalent diesel or petrol-hybrid car. If you don't want to pay over the odds, use our information below. Basically, if you're paying more than the number on the far right, you're paying more for your electricity than the equivalent hybrid or traditional combustion car. Medium cars Medium car type Average fuel consumption in Which? tests Cost Point at which electric becomes more expensive Electric 20.38kwh per 100km n/a n/a Full hybrid (petrol) 55.67mpg £1,068.55 37p per kWh Diesel 55.81mpg £1,092.63 38p per kWh Petrol 41.38mpg £1,437.56 49p per kWh

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new...t-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-a8f4g1o7JzXj - Which?

In this particular situation the ice diesel is more cost effective, ignoring green stuff etc.
It seems Fast chargers are costly to use compared to say slow ones at home. I suspect we have a lot more to learn on the true green and running costs . But my EV bike is still going after 20 miles and showing little or no power usage. Very impressive. But it doesn’t have a heater or heated seats😜😜

 

[JezzerB]

But most people charge at home. Even on our standard tariff were getting 160 mpg equivalent now it's gone up and much better when we change to octopus go. Need a smart meter. Yes you pay for the convenience of fast and ultra fast chargers but to counter that Tesco are free.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Most fast chargers are on or near busy roads and are used by drivers doing high mileage's. But we also see a similar uplift of liquid fuel prices on or near busy roads. However the price differentials of liquid fuels are not as stark as those for the differnt electric tariffs, which does seem to make fast chargers rather expensive to use.

However, simply looking at fuel costs fails to take into account some of other differentials which apply to ownership of the car. So for example an EV will see other savings on things like Road fund tax, insurance, lower servicing costs, fewer consumables such as brake pads, and exhausts, and high temperature lubricants etc

Fewer breakdowns,

These must also be taken into account. And of course the reduction to the damage to the environment not only by the car itself, but also the traditional fuel supply infrastructure.

 

[JezzerB]

To confirm Prof's post we've just paid 128 for fully comp for our Mini SE, protected no claims-couldn't pay up fast enough!

 

[Buckman]

To confirm Prof's post we've just paid 128 for fully comp for our Mini SE, protected no claims-couldn't pay up fast enough!

I am not sure why one would pay lower insurance just because the person drives an EV? Driving an EV does not make the driver or the car any safer on the road?

 

[JezzerB]

Me neither-lower risk? of fire? Repair costs? I have no idea-just stating a fact-it's rediculously cheap!

 

[Ern]

I am not sure why one would pay lower insurance just because the person drives an EV? Driving an EV does not make the driver or the car any safer on the road?

Probably a marketing decision to grab a share of the EV market. Bide your time and the EV market will become the next cash cow.

 

[Buckman]

Probably a marketing decision to grab a share of the EV market. Bide your time and the EV market will become the next cash cow.

Probably increase for EVs after a few claims especially where the battery or batteries are involved.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Probably increase for EVs after a few claims especially where the battery or batteries are involved.

And how does that differ from ICE vehicles? As risks become more detectable or prevalent insurance rates tend to increase whether its EV ICE or any type if insured risk.

 

[Raywood]

To confirm Prof's post we've just paid 128 for fully comp for our Mini SE, protected no claims-couldn't pay up fast enough!

The figure is incredibly low and might be a marketing ploy as Jezzer says, or even an error in the computer system. The other point though is that the insurers will presume that anyone buying a small electric car is environmentally conscious, which suggests a more responsible personality and therefore a lower risk. This might not apply to those buying the bigger ones, who have far more performance available.

 

[Buckman]

And how does that differ from ICE vehicles? As risks become more detectable or prevalent insurance rates tend to increase whether its EV ICE or any type if insured risk.

I am glad we agree.

 

[JezzerB]

I can't see how battery damage on an EV would be any different to engine damage on an ice vehicle Buckman-at that point we're probably talking a write off-in terms of offers yes it was a Confused special-but i then went on to Sagas website and it went down a further £2-amazing-computer error or not-very happy-next nearest was £160 and was actually going to accept that!

 

[Buckman]

I can't see how battery damage on an EV would be any different to engine damage on an ice vehicle Buckman-at that point we're probably talking a write off-in terms of offers yes it was a Confused special-but i then went on to Sagas website and it went down a further £2-amazing-computer error or not-very happy-next nearest was £160 and was actually going to accept that!

I did not say it would be different as similar cost would probably be involved if engine in ICE or battery pack in EV needs to be changed. In other words whether an ICE or EV repairs costs may be similar.