Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

[JezzerB]

Norway is unique - low population density and ideal terrain/climate for hydro-electric generation.

In the UK, sales of hybrids are only as high as they are due to the low BIK tax on them as company cars - the majority of which are returned after 3 years with charging cables never unpacked or used.

I am not sure of the relevance of your comments though you are totally correct-is that an excuse as to why we're slow? slower- I'm not sure we are-actually-moving too fast isn't imo a good idea-and steady development is far more sensible. Fact is regardless of how they make their electricity the government have moved to incentivise EVs as a way to reduce ice vehicles-they were just like us until moves were made to help the EV revolution-like we are beginning to find-their government are feeling the pinch in terms of reduced taxes from ice vehicles and are looking at ways to replace this-they may have better newable availability but the government have like France incentivised EVs with great success. Whether this is successful for transport is a different matter-am sitting on the fence-I think a steady move is better than Norways fast rush-for us anyway-I'm all for EVs but the infrastructure isn't good enough yet. Nor is tax and the loss of it via fuel sorted in anyway-in fact our government seem to be scared to move to an alternative-don't blame them-it wont be popular-sorry an EV convert but a fence sitter!

 

[RogerL]

I am not sure of the relevance of your comments though you are totally correct-is that an excuse as to why we're slow? slower- I'm not sure we are-actually-moving too fast isn't imo a good idea-and steady development is far more sensible. Fact is regardless of how they make their electricity the government have moved to incentivise EVs as a way to reduce ice vehicles-they were just like us until moves were made to help the EV revolution-like we are beginning to find-their government are feeling the pinch in terms of reduced taxes from ice vehicles and are looking at ways to replace this-they may have better newable availability but the government have like France incentivised EVs with great success. Whether this is successful for transport is a different matter-am sitting on the fence-I think a steady move is better than Norways fast rush-for us anyway-I'm all for EVs but the infrastructure isn't good enough yet. Nor is tax and the loss of it via fuel sorted in anyway-in fact our government seem to be scared to move to an alternative-don't blame them-it wont be popular-sorry an EV convert but a fence sitter!

The BIK reduction for EV/hybrids is a huge incentive as the company car sector drives new car sales in the UK.

The fuel tax issue is sorted, at least in the government's mind - it's the ideal excuse to introduce road-pricing but timing is crucial as it's potentially a big vote loser.

If I were younger, I'd be accepting the inevitability of buying an EV but I don't see me buying one in the next 5 years and only maybe in 5-10 years - whether I'm still allowed to drive in 10 years time is another matter.

 

[Buckman]

I am not sure of the relevance of your comments though you are totally correct-is that an excuse as to why we're slow? slower- I'm not sure we are-actually-moving too fast isn't imo a good idea-and steady development is far more sensible. Fact is regardless of how they make their electricity the government have moved to incentivise EVs as a way to reduce ice vehicles-they were just like us until moves were made to help the EV revolution-like we are beginning to find-their government are feeling the pinch in terms of reduced taxes from ice vehicles and are looking at ways to replace this-they may have better newable availability but the government have like France incentivised EVs with great success. Whether this is successful for transport is a different matter-am sitting on the fence-I think a steady move is better than Norways fast rush-for us anyway-I'm all for EVs but the infrastructure isn't good enough yet. Nor is tax and the loss of it via fuel sorted in anyway-in fact our government seem to be scared to move to an alternative-don't blame them-it wont be popular-sorry an EV convert but a fence sitter!

If you look in your cupboards the answer is probably there. In the past people have bought the "latest" goods at high expense only to find that a year or two later the product has been replaced with newer and better technology.
Perhaps many people are reluctant to go out and buy an EV no matter what incentives are offered as they still have to pay for something that may become redundant within a few years and no one wanting to take it off their hands.
The above applies to many items as technology is moving so fast these days that people cannot keep up and also do not want to pay for something that may be redundant within 3 - 5 years.
Please note that I use the words "probably" and "may" in the above scenario as nothing is definite yet.

 

[otherclive]

Rang towing a caravan can cut a electric car range by 75% is it feasible to tow a caravan under these conditions.

One member tows a 1500 kg caravan with his Polestar and whilst not as convenient as a top up for a ICE car he does some quite long journeys. Read the recent trip report by Tobes and some of his earlier posts.
Yes it does require adaption but it’s still early days yet.

Coming back from the shops today I saw a British Gas service van charging at Lidls, a neighbour having a charging point fitted, and I Wales my sons drive is full of crane replacing a power line three doors down where the pole has lost its verticality. And the neighbours with the wonky power line are all EV.

 

[Tobes]

If you look in your cupboards the answer is probably there. In the past people have bought the "latest" goods at high expense only to find that a year or two later the product has been replaced with newer and better technology.
Perhaps many people are reluctant to go out and buy an EV no matter what incentives are offered as they still have to pay for something that may become redundant within a few years and no one wanting to take it off their hands.
The above applies to many items as technology is moving so fast these days that people cannot keep up and also do not want to pay for something that may be redundant within 3 - 5 years.
Please note that I use the words "probably" and "may" in the above scenario as nothing is definite yet.

The irony being that while the current crop of EVs "may" become redundant in a few years where "may" is a very small chance indeed, the alternative is buying an ICE where the potential for it to become redundant in a few years time (measured on the same time scale as EV reducndancy) is actualy much higher.

 

[JTQ]

The irony being that while the current crop of EVs "may" become redundant in a few years where "may" is a very small chance indeed, the alternative is buying an ICE where the potential for it to become redundant in a few years time (measured on the same time scale as EV redundancy) is actually much higher.

Though, you have overlooked that there is at least one "alternative" that many could take, simply keep what you have. Arguably with that, the better for the planet in a truly focused audit.

The potential longevity of many ICE vehicles already made will be into quite a few years, affording development of EVs beyond these initial offerings.
I predict we are very far from optimising EVs at the moment, and the next 8 years could see significant improvements, human ingenuity being what it is.

 

[Tobes]

Though, you have overlooked that there is at least one "alternative" that many could take, simply keep what you have. Arguably with that, the better for the planet in a truly focused audit.

The potential longevity of many ICE vehicles will be into quite a few years, affording development of EVs beyond these initial offerings.

It's true that running an existing vehicle for longer is better for the environment - to a certain point. An EV running on European mix electricity breaks even after 78,000 Km (50k miles) of use.
Driving a modern ICE for 140k mile emits as much CO2 as building a new EV from scratch.

I predict we are very far from optimising EV at the moment and the next 8 years could see significant improvements, human ingenuity being what it is.

No doubt, but the fact that things will continue to improve (defined as "progress") is not a reason to not leverage a better solution available today, than was available yesterday.

 

[Ern]

It's true that running an existing vehicle for longer is better for the environment - to a certain point. An EV running on European mix electricity breaks even after 78,000 Km (50k miles) of use.
Driving a modern ICE for 140k mile emits as much CO2 as building a new EV from scratch.

Are those statements based on facts? I ask because the roundness of the figure is rather eye catching. Is the term "emits" based on the emission alone, or does it include the energy production. It's blindingly obvious that an EV emits very little.

 

[Tobes]

Are those statements based on facts? I ask because the roundness of the figure is rather eye catching. Is the term "emits" based on the emission alone, or does it include the energy production. It's blindingly obvious that an EV emits very little.

https://www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1600176185-20200915polestarlcafinala.pdf

It's from a published study that Volvo / Polestar carried out on an XC40 vs a Polestar 2.
It inclueds energy production. If you consider 100% renewables the EV breakeven mileages are much lower.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Present day EV's will not become redundant in a few years as one commentator previously claimed and tries to continually make us believe. They will live on and continue to give practical service, perhaps as second cars doing shorter journeys. But by comparison to future vehicles they may not provide the same range.

Because of the nature of fuels used and the method of construction, its very difficult to make a fair comparison between the construction of ICE and EV vehicles. To be fair you have to look at the whole life emissions, including the emissions produced in extracting, refining, storage transporting and delivering the fuels used by both types of vehicles.

 

[Dustydog]

Present day EV's will not become redundant in a few years as one commentator previously claimed and tries to continually make us believe. They will live on and continue to give practical service, perhaps as second cars doing shorter journeys. But by comparison to future vehicles they may not provide the same range.

Because of the nature of fuels used and the method of construction, its very difficult to make a fair comparison between the construction of ICE and EV vehicles. To be fair you have to look at the whole life emissions, including the emissions produced in extracting, refining, storage transporting and delivering the fuels used by both types of vehicles.

My concern has always been the source of the raw materials.Lithium production must quadruple between 2020 and 2030 to meet growing demand, from 345,000 tonnes in 2020 to 2 million tonnes in 2030. And Who will or can supply it? 90% plus from China. Not good business in my book.
Anyone remember the “Ransome Strips” of land?

 

[Tobes]

My concern has always been the source of the raw materials.Lithium production must quadruple between 2020 and 2030 to meet growing demand, from 345,000 tonnes in 2020 to 2 million tonnes in 2030. And Who will or can supply it? 90% plus from China. Not good business in my book.
Anyone remember the “Ransome Strips” of land?

Raw numbers in the millions of tonnes always sound huge, until you put them in context. Last month OPEC extracted roughly 32 million barrels of crude oil - PER DAY. Thats about 4.3 Million tonnes of oil PER DAY. Currently Russia and OPEC combined provide around 40% of the worlds oil .

If we want to talk about energy security, or the availability of resources, we should probably consider the resources that the world will need in future for EVs in the context of what is currently used for ICE, and the countries that control those resources too.

It's also worth noting that the Lithium deposits that have been identified in Cornwall are potentialy sufficient to satisfy the whole of the UK demand.

 

[Dustydog]

Ripping up St Ives😥The mind boggles

 

[Tobes]

Ripping up St Ives😥The mind boggles

Now I am confused. It's bad when the mining for resources is in China because we are sending money to a foreign regime, but it's also bad when its in the UK even if it secures the resource chain and means we have local jobs with oversight on working conditions and environmental impact?

 

[JezzerB]

Cornwall are rubbing their hands! In the meantime we only have to look at Nissan Leaf to know that second hand and 'outdated' and old EVs are not simply going the way of old mobile phones-they're still going strong and still selling at decent prices. The market is desperate for budget EVs-Dacia might be the first, although China keep threatening-then things will really take off! In the meantime we're in love with ours. Spent 1 hour 45mins Christmas shopping in Tesco (with a quick pop for a coffee with a friend next door too) and got 11kw for free-so over £2 free fuel-put into perspective went there with 30 miles range, came home with 60! Not a reason for ev s replacing ice but early adopters are most definitely benefitting.

 

[otherclive]

Cornwall are rubbing their hands! In the meantime we only have to look at Nissan Leaf to know that second hand and 'outdated' and old EVs are not simply going the way of old mobile phones-they're still going strong and still selling at decent prices. The market is desperate for budget EVs-Dacia might be the first, although China keep threatening-then things will really take off! In the meantime we're in love with ours. Spent 1 hour 45mins Christmas shopping in Tesco (with a quick pop for a coffee with a friend next door too) and got 11kw for free-so over £2 free fuel-put into perspective went there with 30 miles range, came home with 60! Not a reason for ev s replacing ice but early adopters are most definitely benefitting.

A number of the well known car companies are in fact linked with Chinese car companies. Viz Dacia, Ford, GM, Renault. It’s just not widely publicised as there’s a “ down” in some areas against China.

 

[Hutch]

Cornwall are rubbing their hands! In the meantime we only have to look at Nissan Leaf to know that second hand and 'outdated' and old EVs are not simply going the way of old mobile phones-they're still going strong and still selling at decent prices. The market is desperate for budget EVs-Dacia might be the first, although China keep threatening-then things will really take off! In the meantime we're in love with ours. Spent 1 hour 45mins Christmas shopping in Tesco (with a quick pop for a coffee with a friend next door too) and got 11kw for free-so over £2 free fuel-put into perspective went there with 30 miles range, came home with 60! Not a reason for ev s replacing ice but early adopters are most definitely benefitting.

Thats very good, the free ReCharging will eventually stop.
My friend has been waiting for his MG (is it an ES Ev. ) for over 8 weeks now. Probably sitting off shore London somewhere, coming from China.
But his charging point was fitted within 3 weeks.

 

[otherclive]

Thats very good, the free ReCharging will eventually stop.
My friend has been waiting for his MG (is it an ES Ev. ) for over 8 weeks now. Probably sitting off shore London somewhere, coming from China.
But his charging point was fitted within 3 weeks.

8 weeks is not too long a delivery period compared to some. My daughters Corolla is due end of January ordered early September and our grandson ordered some Hilux for his company back in the summer. Due possibly late February.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whilst the majority of present day EV batteries do use Lithium and Cobalt, a lot of the battery development work is looking for way to reduce dependence on materials that tend to be rare, or produced under dubious processes.

Exactly how batteries will change is perhaps unclear at the moment, but with so much riding on energy storage solutions, I am certain we can look forward to some very impressive new developments that offer improved energy density, lower cost, and more ethical production.

 

[Dustydog]

As a past sceptic on EVs my views have changed radically over the last 12 months.
Battery technology has developed at an amazing pace. Comparable to moving from the ICE side valve to jet engine. The base metals are not that rare although Cobalt mainly comes from the Congo which has very poor human rights and working conditions. This probably explains why Tesla this year says it is moving towards Lithium Iron Phosphate . There is plenty of natural Lithium available world wide though currently mostly mined in Asia.
This is worth a read
https://www.morningbrew.com/emergin...eries-the-backbone-of-the-electric-transition

 

[otherclive]

As a past sceptic on EVs my views have changed radically over the last 12 months.
Battery technology has developed at an amazing pace. Comparable to moving from the ICE side valve to jet engine. The base metals are not that rare although Cobalt mainly comes from the Congo which has very poor human rights and working conditions. This probably explains why Tesla this year says it is moving towards Lithium Iron Phosphate . There is plenty of natural Lithium available world wide though currently mostly mined in Asia.
This is worth a read
https://www.morningbrew.com/emergin...eries-the-backbone-of-the-electric-transition

Dusty
thanks a useful article. One which reinforces my view that as batteries reach the end of their life a viable recycling system will function economically. Whether this recycles the components and materials for other uses or “ reconditions” batteries for further usage in vehicles or other applications remains to be seen. At present recycling initiatives are really still in their infancy as batteries are to be proving quite durable. Here’s a review of potential battery developments.


https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

 

[ProfJohnL]

So many of the subsidiary services to the use of EV's is still in its infancy, and as the market is changing so rapidly its not clear cut which will develop and mature earliest.

Recycling is one area where it is technically possible to recycle the materials quite effectively. But for the industry to develop it needs enough batteries to reach end of life to make the capitol investments needed to build the recycling plants viable. The surprise that faced many was how well most EV batteries do survive, which has delayed the full development of the recycling phase.

 

[Dustydog]

Fascinating article Clive.
Is it this one taking the ???? “Urine powered batteries”?
All new EVs will be supplied with one of these for emergency power.

 

[otherclive]

Fascinating article Clive.
Is it this one taking the ???? “Urine powered batteries”?
All new EVs will be supplied with one of these for emergency power.
View attachment 2654

Better than trying to squeeze out a Travel John to top up the car or caravan battery 😂

 

[otherclive]

Interesting to note that VW have signed a contract with Vulcan Energy for co2 neutral lithium sourced from the Rhineland and Switzerland. They also have a contract with the Cambridge research Center 24M for a process that will remove some production stages and help the more efficient recycling of EV batteries. Lastly the cathodes will be supplied by a Belgian company who meet VWs criteria for sustainable production. They aim to produce 2.2 million EV cars be 2030 and are building six giga factories. The statistics are a bit mind boggling.