You couldn’t make it up!!

[ProfJohnL]

It is wise to be sceptical about virtually all media publications and broadcasts, The writers/presenters are unlikely to openly declare their bias even if they know it, and will write their pieces claiming to offer a balanced view.

I am biased.
I believe climate change is occuring,
I believe climate change has natural causes
I believe mankind's unbridled use of fossil fuels has adversely affected the rate of change of climate change, accelerating the natural rate of change to a point where natures natural constraints are in danger of being overwhelmed and consequently we are veering into a very unstable climatic conditions driven by excess heat energy retained in the atmosphere (edit.. ecosphere), which is leading towards dangerous global warming.

The principal indicator for this is how the AVERAGE global temperature has risen. I stress the "average" because you cannot use just one locality to represent or predict world conditions. In fact local conditions in the UK could well be considerably at variance to global trends becasue we are on the edge of a continental plate, and our weather conditions are mainly driven by the North Atlantic conditions and wind directions.

Secondary indicators are:-
The amount of polar ice melt.
The very significant increase in in the number, frequency and severity of storms around the world.
The increase in the extent of ultra dry conditions across the world leading to the rapid spread of wildfires. Whilst the evidence suggests many of these are either started accidentally or even deliberately, it's the ease with which they can take hold and spread.

The historical records, contained in layers of snow and ice laid down over the centuries and through to pre-history, the rings of tree growth, and other remains that can be analysed clearly demonstrate previous cycles of climate changes have occured, but nowhere as rapidly as present days trends are suggesting. And the increase in chemical indicators of fossil fuel combustion are demonstrated to show a clear increase over the last few centuries that relates to the start of the industrial revolution, which also coincides with the accelerated changes in climate change.

I have yet to see any well evidenced argument that offers a rational alternative to explain these confluences of indicators with the accelerated climate change.

 

[GaryB]

The REAL problem is that we now have so many avenues to conduct research via the internet that we can all find a credible/believable story to back up our own theories to support what we want/enjoy doing.

While WHAT we do is detrimental to the environment around us, it's the ever growing number of people doing it that is compounding the problem.

Short of everyone reverting back to the cave-man way of life I honestly don't what we can all do. Using cars less and the like might well have an impact, but how much in the grand scheme of things (globally, not just the UK).

 

[otherclive]

The REAL problem is that we now have so many avenues to conduct research via the internet that we can all find a credible/believable story to back up our own theories to support what we want/enjoy doing.

While WHAT we do is detrimental to the environment around us, it's the ever growing number of people doing it that is compounding the problem.

Short of everyone reverting back to the cave-man way of life I honestly don't what we can all do. Using cars less and the like might well have an impact, but how much in the grand scheme of things (globally, not just the UK).

You are right insofar as the ability of individuals to effect the massive changes required. It is at a global political level that changes will accrue and to introduce the changes that will affect us as individuals. It can be done when there is a widespread recognition that something needs to be done, and time is not on our side. A smaller, but significant change occurred when Halons were banned by International agreement , in order to reduce further deterioration of the ozone layer, and help it repair. Mitigating the rise in Global Warming will take just such an international endeavour, only times more complex and costly, will be painful. What is the alternative that we leave to our children, grandchildren and their descendants?

 

[GaryB]

It can be done when there is a widespread recognition that something needs to be done, and time is not on our side.

Part of my job sees me trying to implement/change different engineering standards (British Standards and the like) which necessitates dealing with different manufacturers from my industry, often European wide and trying to align common thinking and goals is painful, it can take years to agree on something then another age to actually do it, so I suspect getting our world leaders to agree and action anything on climate change will be a monstrous task that will take an age to do.

I have absolutely no answers, only lots of questions that no-one else has answers for.

 

[otherclive]

Part of my job sees me trying to implement/change different engineering standards (British Standards and the like) which necessitates dealing with different manufacturers from my industry, often European wide and trying to align common thinking and goals is painful, it can take years to agree on something then another age to actually do it, so I suspect getting our world leaders to agree and action anything on climate change will be a monstrous task that will take an age to do.

I have absolutely no answers, only lots of questions that no-one else has answers for.

You have my sympathy in trying to negotiate standards between countries. Where climate change may benefit will be the public’s call for action by politicians. There’s not much public or political support for standards despite their importance and benefits.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

A nice 20 year old Glenfiddich?

Very nice but not foregoing sampling other pure malts. 🤓
I'm still enjoying a quest to find find the perfect malt 🙄

 

[Buckman]

You have my sympathy in trying to negotiate standards between countries. Where climate change may benefit will be the public’s call for action by politicians. There’s not much public or political support for standards despite their importance and benefits.

I may be wrong, but I think the majority of people are fed up to their back teeth with all this climate change stuff being rammed down their throats. Most are probably trying their best to do their little bit, but are getting hit in their pockets where it hurts the most.

 

[Grey13]

Very true. On 19th it will be Wales vs South Africa so that could be a very interesting match. Our daughter and family have tickets for the game.

Only one winner here! 🇿🇦

 

[Grey13]

I am not sure anyone actually understands the true concept of what Net Zero means let alone the implications of EV's for towing. It is all an accounting balance sheet exercise imo but probably not for this platform to go into detail. I put a X post together for it so should add it to my blogs so it can encourage debate and some logical thinking! Good luck trying my recent 2000 odd mile German caravan trip with an EV.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The REAL problem is that we now have so many avenues to conduct research via the internet that we can all find a credible/believable story to back up our own theories to support what we want/enjoy doing.

While WHAT we do is detrimental to the environment around us, it's the ever growing number of people doing it that is compounding the problem.

Short of everyone reverting back to the cave-man way of life I honestly don't what we can all do. Using cars less and the like might well have an impact, but how much in the grand scheme of things (globally, not just the UK).

It's the human races appetite for energy that is the fundamental problem. Energy has been affordable and easily available, and becasue we were not aware of the future impact of using energy generated by burning fossil fuels so inefficiently, It's become second nature, and no -one likes to give up the convenience of this way of life.

Recent evidence has caused mankind to realise that our free for all burn all we want is now coming back to bite us, or our children. and the majority of rational people see and understand "we have a problem" and time is running out.

As a race we need to address the damage we have done, and bring significant changes to the way we plan and do things with a longterm view of the impact of our actions now.

Its totally impractical to suggest reverting to a caveman level of existence, but we do need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels to reduce the amount of pollution caused from their extraction refining, transport, and ultimately burning the stuff.

I encourage everyone to look at their life choices, and to become aware of how in efficiently we use the energy we have. We could save money if we can improve that efficiency and thus need less energy to do the same work.

According to OFGEM up to half the total energy (All sources) consumed in the UK is used to heat space or water for human convenience.

Improving Insulation is one very important way the UK could significantly reduce the amount of energy we use.

Whilst its not the only game in town, but transport is probably the most inefficient use of fossil fuels with gross efficiencies of under 30% meaning at least 70% of fuel purchased is wasted as heat. We have ways to raise transport efficiency to around 70%. Its not going to suit every one until the vehicle options can offer similar convenience to present day ICE, but developments are moving in on that direction.

As the availability of high efficiency alternatives improves , the premium prices we see now for such alternatives will subside ( or the present and past technologies will increase in price or be outlawed).

We will be pushed kicking and screaming toward a new reality, but the time scale is decades not years, so as long most normal drivers progressively make the change, it will begin to make an increasing difference to both energy efficiencies, improvements in air quality and a reduction of our impact on climate change. Eventually we might see a practical EV able to tow a caravan o good few leagues, before being refreshed rapidly at a modern coaching house. Just look out for Jeremy Hunt the modern highway man!

 

[Buckman]

Not sure why zealots continue to try and push their views down our throats at every opportunity, but ignore the real polluters.

 

[Parksy]

This thread will be much better if we don't call each other names.
Duscussions in which differences of opinion are explored are fine, but the name calling has to stop.

 

[woodsieboy]

There will always be a significant difference between fact and opinion,we need more people to recognise the difference

 

[GaryB]

Not sure why zealots continue to try and push their views down our throats at every opportunity, but ignore the real polluters.

When I changed my car last year, my daughters friends parents were critical that I hadn’t chosen an EV but failed to grasp that their Tesla driving choice was possibly overshadowed by them jetting overseas at every opportunity

 

[otherclive]

When I changed my car last year, my daughters friends parents were critical that I hadn’t chosen an EV but failed to grasp that their Tesla driving choice was possibly overshadowed by them jetting overseas at every opportunity

My grandson starts a new job next week and the only cars on offer are EV or PHEV. If he bought his own car then vehicle allowance is being progressively reduced. His problem is that he’s just moved into a new build house and the developers have a condition that if a electric charging point is fitted within the first 12 months of moving in, then the 12 month warranty on the house electric systems is void. There’s no CRA 2015= on houses. I suggested he opt for the Tesla Y and just use company or commercial charging point for 12 months. But the company insist that to have an EV or PHEV he must have a charging point at home. So it’s a bit of a dilemma in that his fiancé is now using their 5 series PHEV on ICE alone. She only has an auto licence despite my advice to do her driving lessons in a manual. A future EV only complicates the situation.

 

[Buckman]

When I changed my car last year, my daughters friends parents were critical that I hadn’t chosen an EV but failed to grasp that their Tesla driving choice was possibly overshadowed by them jetting overseas at every opportunity

Unfortunately the majority of people cannot afford an EV even if they wanted one and probably also cannot afford many of the green policies thrust on them. No wonder high streets are dying as people move to out of town shopping centres.

 

[otherclive]

Unfortunately the majority of people cannot afford an EV even if they wanted one and probably also cannot afford many of the green policies thrust on them. No wonder high streets are dying as people move to out of town shopping centres.

I think that the trend to out of town Center shopping and online shopping started well before green policies started to have any impact on people’s lives. We have used out of town retail for a long while now. But still go in to the town Center weekly despite the exorbitant parking charges which you don’t incur in the nearby retail parks. But we are fortunate that there are buses every 20 minutes, and it’s only a 30 minute walk away. We researched when we decided to move in 2019. Two major aspects were to be near facilities and family. Even when the day comes that we cannot walk, or the buses disappear everything required apart from a main hospital are within electric scooter range. Even the local undertaker has Tesla hearses and cars 😱

 

[ProfJohnL]

Not sure why ********* continue to try and push their views down our throats at every opportunity, but ignore the real polluters.

When a comment is made that includes or relies on contentious information, it's only fair that a response can be made to provide a balance.

Personally I and others have not as you put it" ignored the real polluters", and at times we they have been included, but it's worth bearing in mind this is a caravan forum, and to keep the topics relevant to caravanners, many of the wider issues related to pollution are better discussed elsewhere.

 

[Grey13]

My take on so called MAN made climate change with regard to it's impact on us caravaners and why I strongly resist the changes to EV's

I have lived through at least 5 major "experts and scientists" predict the world would end soon events. However notwithstanding all doomsday predictions, we are still all here.

To clarify this post, we are not all debating the pro's and con's of Net Zero / man made climate change in the context of this forum but only the consequential affects it will cause among other things the affordable drive to electric cars and their absolute inability to tow caravans. Spend a moment reflecting on the many previous calamity predictions before rushing out to buy an EV (IMO)

Apart from that the exorbitant costs of suitable cars and their restrictive tow distances. My recent trip to Germany of around 2000 miles would have necessitated at least 10 charging stops of who knows how long almost making the tip impossible.

I am firmly against the current hastily concocted net zero drive because I think it is yet another hoax as so many of these previous predictions have been!

• 10 Years ago it was “no petrol, buy diesel” today diesel is bad! They cannot even get simple things like that right!
• In the 1960s, overpopulation and famine forecasts were all the rage. Despite the Green Revolution, which spurred crop yields across the globe, scientists among them Paul Erlich, a Stanford biologist and end times prophet, preached a starvation gospel: “The Green Revolution...is going to turn brown.”
• In 1970, as greenhouse theorists pushed a rise in average temperature, plenty of prognosticators asserted a big freeze. Kenneth Watt sounded the ice alarm, speaking in Pennsylvania at Swarthmore College: “The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but 11 degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age.”
• Acid rain concerns kicked off the 1980s, but generally were replaced late in the decade with a flood of headlines on heat, greenhouse effect, and sea levels.
• Greenhouse gases: In 1982, Mostafa Tolba, executive director of the UN’s Environment Program, pointed to the possibility of widespread devastation in less than 20 years. He cited “an environmental catastrophe which will witness devastation as complete, as irreversible as any nuclear holocaust.”

In 2006, former vice-president Al Gore projected that unless drastic measures were implemented, the planet would hit an irreversible “point of no return” by 2016. Game over. Rajendra Pachauri, head of the UN Climate Panel, one-upped Gore in 2007, insisting 2012 was the year of irreversibility. “If there is no action before 2012, that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.

The acclaimed godfather of global warming, James Hansen, drew a line in the sand testifying before Congress in June 2008, on the dangers of greenhouse gases: “We’re toast if we don’t get on a very different path. This is the last chance."

Our own then-Prince Charles chimed in July 2009, , asserting the planet had 96 months to avoid decimation: “…irretrievable climate and ecosystem collapse, and all that goes with it."

But therein lies the beauty of doomsday predictions: When one fails, make another. Only one thing drives these clearly false predictions, the gullibility of society and the manipulation of the data by the elitist big business fraternity!

There is no need for weapons without a war, no need for green energy without climate change, no need for vaccines without a pandemic.

This is the essence of disaster capitalism, and you are the crop that they yield on the tax farm that is planet Earth.

Credit various research.

 

[Buckman]

It was my understanding that although this is a caravan forum a thread or post in the Chit Chat forum allows most subjects to be discussed that are NOT caravan related.

I am sure that if a moderator felt a post was unsuitable to be discussed in Chit Chat a moderator would either delete or move as that is why we have moderators.

I doubt in any individuals on the forum can act as moderators telling people what they can discuss and what they cannot discuss?

 

[Buckman]

My take on so called MAN made climate change!

I have lived through at least 5 major "experts and scientists" predict the world would end soon. However notwithstanding all doomsday predictions, we are still all here.

• 10 Years ago it was “no petrol, buy diesel” today diesel is bad! They cannot even get simple things like that right!
• In the 1960s, overpopulation and famine forecasts were all the rage. Despite the Green Revolution, which spurred crop yields across the globe, scientists among them Paul Erlich, a Stanford biologist and end times prophet, preached a starvation gospel: “The Green Revolution...is going to turn brown.”
• In 1970, as greenhouse theorists pushed a rise in average temperature, plenty of prognosticators asserted a big freeze. Kenneth Watt sounded the ice alarm, speaking in Pennsylvania at Swarthmore College: “The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but 11 degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age.”
• Acid rain concerns kicked off the 1980s, but generally were replaced late in the decade with a flood of headlines on heat, greenhouse effect, and sea levels.
• Greenhouse gases: In 1982, Mostafa Tolba, executive director of the UN’s Environment Program, pointed to the possibility of widespread devastation in less than 20 years. He cited “an environmental catastrophe which will witness devastation as complete, as irreversible as any nuclear holocaust.”

In 2006, former vice-president Al Gore projected that unless drastic measures were implemented, the planet would hit an irreversible “point of no return” by 2016. Game over. Rajendra Pachauri, head of the UN Climate Panel, one-upped Gore in 2007, insisting 2012 was the year of irreversibility. “If there is no action before 2012, that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.



The acclaimed godfather of global warming, James Hansen, drew a line in the sand testifying before Congress in June 2008, on the dangers of greenhouse gases: “We’re toast if we don’t get on a very different path. This is the last chance."

Our own then-Prince Charles chimed in July 2009, , asserting the planet had 96 months to avoid decimation: “…irretrievable climate and ecosystem collapse, and all that goes with it."

But therein lies the beauty of doomsday predictions: When one fails, make another. Only one thing drives these clearly false predictions, the gullibility of society and the manipulation of the data by the elitist big business fraternity!

There is no need for weapons without a war, no need for green energy without climate change, no need for vaccines without a pandemic.

This is the essence of disaster capitalism, and you are the crop that they yield on the tax farm that is planet Earth.

Credit various research.

Probably mostly just one big tax con and a way to make politicians rich as I often wonder if any of them have shares in all the green projects that they start.

If there is such a big concern what about the environmental impact of the HS2 railway line which is devastating acres of good farm land etc?

 

[Parksy]

It was my understanding that although this is a caravan forum a thread or post in the Chit Chat forum allows most subjects to be discussed that are NOT caravan related.

I am sure that if a moderator felt a post was unsuitable to be discussed in Chit Chat a moderator would either delete or move as that is why we have moderators.

I doubt in any individuals on the forum can act as moderators telling people what they can discuss and what they cannot discuss?

Before the pandemic and subsequent lock down, this forum was kept on a strictly caravan related agenda.
Very little caravan related activity took place during the lockdown, so there wasn't much caravan related material to discuss.
Admin are very good in allowing forum moderators to set boundaries and we have a relatively free hand in deciding how this forum is run.
We decided to slightly expand the forum remit so that within reason, polite debate about a variety of subjects can take place.
We draw the line at 'party politics' or tribalism, but issues surrounding climate change are likely to affect all of us, and from a caravanners point of view the trend toward alternative automotive energy could potentially affect us greatly.
If a debate is conducted politely and in the spirit of give and take, we're happy for a wide range of subjects to be aired on the appropriate message boards and within forum guidelines.

 

[otherclive]

My take on so called MAN made climate change with regard to it's impact on us caravaners and why I strongly resist the changes to EV's

I have lived through at least 5 major "experts and scientists" predict the world would end soon events. However notwithstanding all doomsday predictions, we are still all here.

To clarify this post, we are not all debating the pro's and con's of Net Zero / man made climate change in the context of this forum but only the consequential affects it will cause among other things the affordable drive to electric cars and their absolute inability to tow caravans. Spend a moment reflecting on the many previous calamity predictions before rushing out to buy an EV (IMO)

Apart from that the exorbitant costs of suitable cars and their restrictive tow distances. My recent trip to Germany of around 2000 miles would have necessitated at least 10 charging stops of who knows how long almost making the tip impossible.

I am firmly against the current hastily concocted net zero drive because I think it is yet another hoax as so many of these previous predictions have been!

• 10 Years ago it was “no petrol, buy diesel” today diesel is bad! They cannot even get simple things like that right!
• In the 1960s, overpopulation and famine forecasts were all the rage. Despite the Green Revolution, which spurred crop yields across the globe, scientists among them Paul Erlich, a Stanford biologist and end times prophet, preached a starvation gospel: “The Green Revolution...is going to turn brown.”
• In 1970, as greenhouse theorists pushed a rise in average temperature, plenty of prognosticators asserted a big freeze. Kenneth Watt sounded the ice alarm, speaking in Pennsylvania at Swarthmore College: “The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but 11 degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age.”
• Acid rain concerns kicked off the 1980s, but generally were replaced late in the decade with a flood of headlines on heat, greenhouse effect, and sea levels.
• Greenhouse gases: In 1982, Mostafa Tolba, executive director of the UN’s Environment Program, pointed to the possibility of widespread devastation in less than 20 years. He cited “an environmental catastrophe which will witness devastation as complete, as irreversible as any nuclear holocaust.”

In 2006, former vice-president Al Gore projected that unless drastic measures were implemented, the planet would hit an irreversible “point of no return” by 2016. Game over. Rajendra Pachauri, head of the UN Climate Panel, one-upped Gore in 2007, insisting 2012 was the year of irreversibility. “If there is no action before 2012, that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.

The acclaimed godfather of global warming, James Hansen, drew a line in the sand testifying before Congress in June 2008, on the dangers of greenhouse gases: “We’re toast if we don’t get on a very different path. This is the last chance."

Our own then-Prince Charles chimed in July 2009, , asserting the planet had 96 months to avoid decimation: “…irretrievable climate and ecosystem collapse, and all that goes with it."

But therein lies the beauty of doomsday predictions: When one fails, make another. Only one thing drives these clearly false predictions, the gullibility of society and the manipulation of the data by the elitist big business fraternity!

There is no need for weapons without a war, no need for green energy without climate change, no need for vaccines without a pandemic.

This is the essence of disaster capitalism, and you are the crop that they yield on the tax farm that is planet Earth.

Credit various research.

Even without climate change I would support green energy. It cuts down pollution and offers the country more security of supply plus the attraction of heating the home without reliance on gas boilers and water systems really does appeal to me

I’m really puzzled about your comment wrt “ no need for vaccines without a pandemic”. What other options would there be to tackle the various diseases that by using vaccines have been pushed back into their respective boxes IE poliomyelitis, smallpox, measles, meningitis, hepatitis etc….the list is too long to detail. Presumably you are more in favour of letting natural selection fight it out?

 

[Buckman]

Even without climate change I would support green energy. It cuts down pollution and offers the country more security of supply plus the attraction of heating the home without reliance on gas boilers and water systems really does appeal to me

I agree regarding support green energy if you can afford it, but the cost of all the wind farms, tidal etc all come at a cost . They all impact the environment in one way or the other except that the environmental damage is now in the countryside and hidden away from city dwellers who think they are doing their bit every time they have a brew. Don't we still currently need fossil fuel to generate electric?

At present we import electric from the EU so are hardly self sufficient or have security of supply and probably will not have security of supply for decades as proven very recently.

We have air source heating and if the temperature dropped below 11C it becomes ineffective and we freeze. Currently during the winter some mornings the unit resembles one gigantic ice block. It also cost us a fortune over the past year to heat our 2 bedroom home and we had lowered the temperature and turned off heating in one of the bedrooms to try and save some money. Unfortunately for some reason this then creates damp issues even though we have an extractor?

 

[Dustydog]

When a comment is made that includes or relies on contentious information, it's only fair that a response can be made to provide a balance.

Personally I and others have not as you put it" ignored the real polluters", and at times we they have been included, but it's worth bearing in mind this is a caravan forum, and to keep the topics relevant to caravanners, many of the wider issues related to pollution are better discussed elsewhere.

Goodness me Prof. It hasn’t stopped you preaching your chosen wares😉. There is no right or wrong. We had trams , trolley buses decades ago. Lovely and clean but fuelled by then dirty coal fired power stations. Ever felt history keeps repeating itself?
Now the 64 million dollar question. Do you go hot or cold upon death? 😜