I agree with Parksy. The Chit Chat section is open to subjects not necessarily related to caravaning. While its good to discuss various issues such as this it seems only a matter of time before differences in opinion start to get personal. The discussion descends into a debate not about the subject matter but who said what and in what manner.
It's not entirely up to individual members to decide when a topic should be taken off line. If you have a strong objection contact the moderators.
It's not entirely up to individual members to decide when a topic should be taken off line. If you have a strong objection contact the moderators.
The WW2 german system used coal or natural gas as the source of their fuels, which is entirely different to the concept that F1 and Porsche are using, where they are attempting to collect CO2 from the atmosphere (Direct Carbon Capture), and hydrogen using hydrogen steam reforming process Both these processes are energy intensive, and tend to use about 4 times as much energy as the calorific value of the fuel they produce. (20% efficient)
The inherent inefficiencies of IC engines (Practical best efficiency only 35%) suggests the total energy efference of IC using synthetic fuels would be about 7%
For every kWh of energy used to turn the wheels you would be wasting about 14kWh of energy.
Add the fact that any hydrocarbon fuel burnt under compression in an IC engine will produce some pollutants, It may be cleaner than natural fuels but it certainly is not zero emissions.
The electric trans connectors work both ways. We import gas from Norway too, but to my mind having renewable and some nuclear does improve our security of supply and reduces the extraction, transport and burning of fossil fuels. Even electric energy costs could be independent of global prices. There are those who seem to advocate increasing our offshore production of oil and gas, but both these fuels are governed by world prices and do nothing to improve our energy supply and security. Estimates seem to predict at best an extra 3% would be extracted. To whose benefit? It’s not surprising that the changes to less reliance on fossil fuels will take a long time but aren’t they wort pursuing?
In our first house in Plymouth in 1973 we had electric central heating installed, it was ace in that every room had its own thermostatically controlled radiator, and the house was the split into zones, with various timer controls. So pleased to ditch the coal fire and Valor paraffin heaters. It sounds as if your CH with heat pump is a poorly designed/matched system..
We have had issues with it in the past, but certainly better than when it was first installed. Biggest issue and worry is if we have a day or three where it is really cold and is no longer effective. This will happen with any air source heat pump. Another sort of drawback is that while hot water is being heated in early morning the temperature can drop considerabl, but probably our own fault as we always leave the bedroom window at the top open to get some sort of fresh air into the home.
Methanol derived fuels were produced prior to WW2, but a great leap forward was made by ICI in the 1960s. Some navies are building conventional submarines that are propelled using methanol in conjunction with fuel cells. Also shipping operators are also looking at the feasibility, but in the commercial market costs rule supreme and methanol or methanol derived fuels are not cheap.
Methanol Production – A Technical History | Johnson Matthey Technology Review
Global methanol production in 2016 was around 85 million metric tonnes (1), enough to fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool every twelve minutes. And if all the global production capacity were in full use, it would only take eight minutes. The vast majority of the produced methanol undergoes at...
Two years ago the heat pump in the Norfolk barn took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1deg c. Water peaked at 50deg c and needed use of the electric immersion. Rubbish. But I am sure our own mini nuclear boilers or some other fantastic scientific heater will emerge. We must look beyond the horizon. Nothing we have today is particularly good but more so whatever we have must be affordable for all not the chosen few
Hi Clive.
Nope I make the case that the powers that be (big pharma etc) need these sorts of "large scale events" to promote money spinning enterprises that make the rich rich and the poor poorer. As far as vaccines are concerned and in the light that I am a transplant patient and have so far had at least 6 or 7 COVID jabs obviously there is a need for them but in my humble opinion 90% of the population with good strong immune systems probably did not need them. I have no basic objection to them. Hope that explains my comment.
Interesting point: As far as I can see...Methanol derived fuels were produced prior to WW2, but a great leap forward was made by ICI in the 1960s. Some navies are building conventional submarines that are propelled using methanol in conjunction with fuel cells. Also shipping operators are also looking at the feasibility, but in the commercial market costs rule supreme and methanol or methanol derived fuels are not cheap.
Methanol Production – A Technical History | Johnson Matthey Technology Review
Global methanol production in 2016 was around 85 million metric tonnes (1), enough to fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool every twelve minutes. And if all the global production capacity were in full use, it would only take eight minutes. The vast majority of the produced methanol undergoes at...technology.matthey.com
How much CO2 does burning 1kg of methane produce?
2.75 kg
Burning 1 kg of methanol makes 1.37 kg of carbon dioxide.
Today methane is actually produced by burning, you guessed it, methane.
Now add the CO2 produced to burn methane to get methanol and yes it is higher.
I am pretty sure if there was a desire, for next to nothing science could find ways to drastically reduce CO2 from diesel cars. But there is probably no big money to be had.
I was only replying to Dustys post at # 77 and not advocating wider use of methanol. In fact Esso will be removing methanol from their Synergy premium petrol and replacing it with ethanol. However Increasingly, syngas, a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide derived from biomass is used for methanol production.
From Clean Technica
'' A product from P1 Fuels,which uses biowaste and carbon capture to produce a viable internal combustion fuel''
Like most developments I presume that if it can be scaled up then costs would come down.
'' A product from P1 Fuels,which uses biowaste and carbon capture to produce a viable internal combustion fuel''
Like most developments I presume that if it can be scaled up then costs would come down.
I just wish we had a "Methane" extractor in our house on a Saturday morning after a Realy nice vegetarian curry.
On the general issue of EV's it is pie in the sky, certainly in the next decade or two. Having completed a 2000 mile round trip van in tow to Germany I can say even if I could afford the £50/£70 K to buy a suitable EV towing car, it would not work. First problem is recharging. Reports give 200 to 300 mile range when towing as we drive. That would mean 4 charge stops on the way there and 4 on the way back.
Quote "Fast charging stations will fully charge most electric vehicles, from empty to 100%, in 4-6 hours. Big batteries of 75 kWh and up will generally take about 5-10 hours to complete charging"
So what was a 12 hour trip from home to Germany caravan park, notwithstanding all the hilly terrain we would have to spend almost twice the driving time just charging!
Next I can state with some confidence having visited a few "services" here in the UK and in Europe, if I saw 6 or so points at any spot it was a lot and NOT ONE made provision for a car with hooked up charge.
Every shopping center in Europe and for that matter only have a token 6 or 10 charging points and on top of that having visited numerous petrol stations on the trip at least 98% of cars I saw were using the pumps!
Next every recent winter we encounter the doomsday story of "possible load-shedding" due to shortage of generation capacity, god forbid we end up with a high pressure depression and all wind capacity is dead, where will all the extra power come from to charge 32 million extra EV's
Even though I do not believe the doomsday scenarios pitched by those with something to gain, the whole concept right now is laughable.
Can you fork out £50K for this ideological scam?
I for sure cannot and will buy a new petrol or diesel car just before the ban on new ones come into force.
IMO we are looking at another farce similar to that of 10 years ago-
Scrap your petrol car and buy diesel!
BTW absolutely not one EV charger at he fairly large park we stayed at and a restriction on charging EV's at your site due to inadequate electrical wiring system that was not designed for extra load!
Quote "Fast charging stations will fully charge most electric vehicles, from empty to 100%, in 4-6 hours. Big batteries of 75 kWh and up will generally take about 5-10 hours to complete charging"
So what was a 12 hour trip from home to Germany caravan park, notwithstanding all the hilly terrain we would have to spend almost twice the driving time just charging!
Next I can state with some confidence having visited a few "services" here in the UK and in Europe, if I saw 6 or so points at any spot it was a lot and NOT ONE made provision for a car with hooked up charge.
Every shopping center in Europe and for that matter only have a token 6 or 10 charging points and on top of that having visited numerous petrol stations on the trip at least 98% of cars I saw were using the pumps!
Next every recent winter we encounter the doomsday story of "possible load-shedding" due to shortage of generation capacity, god forbid we end up with a high pressure depression and all wind capacity is dead, where will all the extra power come from to charge 32 million extra EV's
Even though I do not believe the doomsday scenarios pitched by those with something to gain, the whole concept right now is laughable.
Can you fork out £50K for this ideological scam?
I for sure cannot and will buy a new petrol or diesel car just before the ban on new ones come into force.
IMO we are looking at another farce similar to that of 10 years ago-
Scrap your petrol car and buy diesel!
BTW absolutely not one EV charger at he fairly large park we stayed at and a restriction on charging EV's at your site due to inadequate electrical wiring system that was not designed for extra load!
Attachments
Whilst cost is going to be a factor, for any fuel, from the ecological perspective it's the energy used to produce the fuel, and the fact that even though the synth fuel may use renewable power generation to run the production process, the act of burning the fuel under pressure in an IC engine will produce a range of emissions, that not only includes CO2, but also various other Nitrous oxides and Carbon monoxide.
Such fuels are not emission free, not energy efficient, but they may be an expensive way forward for quite specific purposes, where battery electric solutions are not tenable.
Surely the aim of bio derived synthetic fuels is to offset the carbon dioxide emissions so it’s a zero sum output. That’s what Porche are aiming for with their significant development in Chile, plus those aero engine makers that are testing synthetic fuels fir commercial flight usage. The complete cycle from production to use has to be considered not just one part of the cycle.
I do agree the present situation does not support the specific use case you have reported. That experience does not automatically mean EV's have no future, as a rapidly increasing number of drivers will attest.
Not only are the number of EV's growing, but also the infrastructure is improving, though it's still got a long way to go. We have all become so comfortable with the way IC vehicles operate, and the infrastructure that supports them, It would be great if there were no discernable user differences, but changes of this type can't occur over night, and it will take as you say several decades for the complete changeover.
I'll not rule out the possibility that caravanning as we know it may need to change quite dramatically.
The much derided BBC recently ran two programmes by Justin Rowlett covering topics of EV, battery production (or non production) in UK, infrastructure issues particularly connection new power sources to the grid and home heating with heat pumps/hydrogen. It covered many of the concerns that members of the Forum have raised wrt their hobby or normal life activities. Overall i found it quite Interesting, but it didn’t really address the other view that many tens of thousands of EV owners have no problem adapting to and using their EVs, and also enjoy them.
The Highlands because of the vast amount of space between towns and villages presents a challenge to EVs. The roads add an additional challange in that there's not much choice of getting from A to B.
Two weeks ago - when towing - a fatal accicent happened in Glen Coe and we were faced with the challenge of turning around on a narrow road and then going on a detour of about 120 miles . Even without towing this would have been a trip with high range anxiety. It's happened to us before but fortunately we'd topped up with deisel just before the incident. Not many charging points - if any - in Glen Coe.
On our end of Skye I know of 4 charging points. Two weeks ago 3 were not working and one requires a specific card to be able to use it.
As 2030 approaches I'm going into the used deisel car market and buying up what I can. As the nearer we get to that date I can see used deisel prices rising
Two weeks ago - when towing - a fatal accicent happened in Glen Coe and we were faced with the challenge of turning around on a narrow road and then going on a detour of about 120 miles . Even without towing this would have been a trip with high range anxiety. It's happened to us before but fortunately we'd topped up with deisel just before the incident. Not many charging points - if any - in Glen Coe.
On our end of Skye I know of 4 charging points. Two weeks ago 3 were not working and one requires a specific card to be able to use it.
As 2030 approaches I'm going into the used deisel car market and buying up what I can. As the nearer we get to that date I can see used deisel prices rising
Anybody else remember Betamax, we have ben here so many times before, I am betting that in 30 years time people will look back on the EV hype, wind frams and heat pumps and wonder what on earth posessed us to get involved, as by then new technologies will have emerged, be too late for me anyway.
You are correct, the aim was to produce a net zero carbon dioxide, and provided the energy used to make the fuel is only sourced from renewables, then in theory it will be a net zero fuel. But the CO2 measure is a gross over simplification of the issues, to make easily understood by the public ( and politicians). CO2 is one of the most common emissions from humans activities, its relatively easily measurable so it has been used as a key indicator to scale emissions.
IC engines involve burning fuel under compression, and just like most human invented technology, the process is not perfect, complete combustion does not occur, so some fuel will undergo partial combustion, and other chemical changes producing, Nitrous and other oxides and monoxide, which are undesirable emmisions, technically even water and waste heat are emmisions.
But when you look at the energy balance sheet, synthetic fuels are so energy use intensive to produce. Scaling production based on present day knowledge, is not going to radically change the energy balance. When used in an IC engine, only about 7% of the energy used to produce the fuel will actually used to move the vehicle.
If the same energy were used in BEVs much closer to 90% would used to move the vehicle.
Synth fuels will have a niche market, but based on what we know now, it's very unlikely they will ever become the main fuel for transport.
Are you seriously going to try and use recycled diesel fuel😱😱😱😱....
As the nearer we get to that date I can see used deisel prices rising
Let alone Betamax, what about the zealot drive to buy diesel 10 years ago!
Anyway it is an ideological dream that people without any thought agree to until the consequences hit their pockets then all hell breaks lose! IMO
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