A seemingly totally despicable bit of con-trickery

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there.
Recently I sadly sold my 1 previous owner 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. A current health issue has meant that I am unable to get in and out easily and rather than put it into storage for an indefinite period - it was sold.

Before it was sold I paid for some repairs,resealing and and updating of ceiling board cover strips - along with a full service by a very very reputable caravan repair specialist in Yorkshire.

The caravan was sold with everything ready to go including two 40litre Aqua Rolls,a Waste Master and expensive security equipment along with a full size (1050mm) Bradcot Classic awning with lightweight poles and storage bags.

The damp meter readings were all below 15 and documented,some were as low as 10.

The new owners took the caravan to a rather large and well known multi leisure pursuit dealership for an impartial bit of advice and guidance on aspects that they were completely unfamiliar with. They were total newbies to caravanning and decided that a trip to a local'ish major dealership for some help would perhaps be appropriate as beginner caravanner's.

I had given them a brief run-down and handed over all manuals and history with receipts etc BUT the dealership absolutely slated the caravan and declared that there was an 80% damp reading at one point in the caravan - a point that had been given a very low reading and as I recall it was below 14.

They were told that the floor was de-laminating and that the OS wall had a bow in it that was serious enough to render the caravan an 'Uneconomical repair' at circa £2500 - £3000. The gap turned out to be between 15mm & 18mm. Seemingly his gaping is not unusual and especially with certain twin axle caravans,it is apparently and most certainly not a massively expensive repair job.

The new owners were immediately horrified but quickly jumped on and consoled with a deal on one of the companies stock caravans - a 2004 Bailey Pageant fixed bed single axle and an additional cash amount of £2000 from them - would see a 'Done-deal, BUT it had to be completed that day!!!!!!!!!

The uneconomical to repair caravan was allegedly going to the trade at a 'Hefty Loss' and would be repaired over the Winter and resold in the new season.

WELL - the caravan is now up for sale and described in the most descriptive of waxing lyrical terms and the albeit short-term new owners of what was my caravan now have a Bailey Pageant that needs two new windows fitted and is currently not usable.

For reasons that must be obvious to you all I cannot name this company and all I can confirm is that I did a 200mile round trip because of my total horror and disbelief at what I was told. I contested the de-laminating of the floor with the manager albeit the OS wall is away from the fixed furniture by approximately 18mm in the very centre of the top - bottom location.
I was later told that this is apparently not uncommon and would not cause major concern but would be left until a slightly larger gap is more accessible for repairs/reinstatement to be affected.

I strongly believe that an old and knowingly wildly inaccurate damp meter was produced from "aside" for both the couple that bought my caravan and then for me to substantiate a despicable act of "seeing them coming".

 

[Parksy]

Unfortunately the words of your forum signature sum it all up TR.
Caravan buyers who are complete novices can and do fall prey to unscrupulous sales tactics. When these newbies were told that the deal had to be completed on that day it obviously never occurred to them to ask 'Why?'
Newbies need to learn not to do the sales staffs job for them, a large dose of healthy scepticism coupled with an outward appearance of unenthusiastic indifference can go a long way when it comes to buying a caravan from a dealer.

 

[NigelHutson]

A sad story, but unfortunately not the first time that a dealer has used "damp" as an excuse/reason to try to get a customer to part with more cash.

If this tactic is used, ALWAYS ask to see the calibration certificate for the damp meter. If they produce it, fine, but ask to test one of their stock caravans to compare (especially if the weather' been damp/wet/cold). If they can't/won't produce the certificate then walk away!

 

[Dustydog]

Hi TR,

Firstly I am very sorry to hear your health problems have resulted in the sale of your caravan which has been the subject of many posts on here and elsewhere.

Not only is this a sad story but one that is nothing short of premeditated fraud.
I realise you cannot name the firm but I'd love to know what County they trade in.

This kind of behaviour needs to be brought to the attention of the County Trading Standards officer, The NCC, and all other professional bodies to whom the Company belong.

I appreciate we only have your version but no doubt the newbies can corroborate the story.
Is the Elddis up for sale yet?
Hope you recover and star caravanning again

 

[Martin_E]

Nigel

The industry standard damp meter is Protimeter, Protimeters are self calibrated on each use and should fall within the specified readings.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Martin,

The auto test on this type of equipment can only be accepted as a proving test, not a calibration test.

Where a piece of technology is being used to assess a value or the condition of something - such as moisture in a caravan, then it should be calibrated properly. That requires comparison against national standards at a predetermined interval. This can only be done at an accredited calibration laboratory under controlled conditions.

If a case concerning the readings of such a device went to court, any half decent barrister would be looking for evidence of formal calibration, and evidence of proper training in the use of the device, to avoid malreadings. Self tests would not be accepted as proof of calibration

 

[RayS]

Prof. John has got it absolutely right. I spent far too much of my working life struggling with moisture measurement in such varied things as grain, paper, clay for bricks, gases for aerosol propellant, timber, organic solvents etc. not to know how basically difficult it is to make a reliable, easy to use, reasonably accurate and affordable measuring instrument. And then there was the problem in most cases of determining just what were the critical levels of 'moisture' for the particular applications.
The solvents and propellants were fairly easy in this respect, but in some of the other cases the values the clent thought they wanted were related more to folklore than science.

I have a feeling that the critical damp percentage applied to caravans tends towards the former.

 

[NigelHutson]

Nigel

The industry standard damp meter is Protimeter, Protimeters are self calibrated on each use and should fall within the specified readings.

Hi Martin,

You are quite right when you say 'should', but what happens when it doesn't? As Prof J and Ray S say, I think the dealer would struggle if the device was taken to court. I have experience of a number of 'Police' type devices which are self-checking, but ALL required periodic manufacturer calibration.

 

[Damian]

The Protimeter is supplied as Calibrated (I forget the exact tolerances) and has a check tool supplied with each unit which Is used before any reading is taken to ensure that the meter is performing within the permitted tolerances.
So "Self Calibrating" is perhaps a wrong expression to use, it does require input from the operator.
The meters themselves will detect moisture in the range of 6% to 90%.
However, (there is always a "However), the readings depend on the type of timber being tested and its "normal" moisture content, so without knowing exactly what timber is beneath the wallboard, all the engineer can go on is a "best guess" and an average reading.
As the readings relating to caravan dampness are so large in what is acceptable and what is not, pinpoint accuracy is not needed.
Other tell tale signs of dampness are usually present such as soft wallboard, or pimpling of the wallboard, or simple water evident and the subsequent staining.

It is very easy to claim that a perfectly dry van is riddled with damp and is about to fall apart by letting the probes contact either the window seals or hidden reinforcing plates, staples etc.
The Operator is the biggest problem , or can be in unscrupulous hands.

 

[NigelHutson]

You hit the nail on the head there, the operator!

However, to have any legal standing, the devices must be calibrated at some point, bearing in mind that there will be a threshold between the percentage damp that is acceptable and what is not, especially if the dealer is quoting readings from that device.

Again, considering devices that I have had experience of, either self-checking, or ones which required a manual check prior to use, they all had to be within calibration (and periodically re-calibrated). If not, any readings they gave would not be accepted in a Court.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi TR,

Firstly I am very sorry to hear your health problems have resulted in the sale of your caravan which has been the subject of many posts on here and elsewhere.

Not only is this a sad story but one that is nothing short of premeditated fraud.
I realise you cannot name the firm but I'd love to know what County they trade in.

This kind of behaviour needs to be brought to the attention of the County Trading Standards officer, The NCC, and all other professional bodies to whom the Company belong.

I appreciate we only have your version but no doubt the newbies can corroborate the story.
Is the Elddis up for sale yet?
Hope you recover and star caravanning again

Hi Dustydog. As much as I would really like-to expose this outfit or even to disclose which County they operate from ...
The caravan is up for sale and is approximately 35miles away from where the dirty deal was initially carried out,it appeared within a few days of me travelling to the said dealership to contest what they had claimed.
The caravan has had absolutely nothing done to it and it even has a few personal items that I installed and left in for the "New to be" owners - still in the caravan.
I can assure you that what I have stated is absolutely as it was/is and the dealer that currently has the caravan is not what I would regard as an honest and totally truthful person.
I asked him several pertinent questions as a prospective buyer,he was not given to offering reliable answers and indeed I strongly believe that he was being evasive.
The sad thing about the whole thing of the caravan is that the people that bought it from me appear to want to wash their hands off of the whole thing for the embarrassment that it has afflicted them with.
They have not responded/replied to my several calls to the fixed line and mobile phone numbers.
I have even as recent as yesterday evening sent out an E'mail to them but it looks very much like it will end-up in the Cyber-shredder.

Moderators Note
This post has been edited in order to remove possible identification of those allegedly involved.
This forum cannot act as an arbitration service in disputes with companies or between individuals. There is no mechanism with which to check all the facts of the matter and it is impossible to either prove or disprove allegations made on forum posts.
Parksy
(Moderator)

 

[RogerL]

TR - those clues should be enough to pinpoint the dealer!

I don't know how, because I had my wits about me, but I got rolled over when I bought my Lunar - our Bailey p/x was 12 years old and leaking, known from my own testing, and declared to the dealer during negotiations - the agreed price was £1,400 against the discounted price of the new Lunar - but within 10 days of p/x it was on sale "privately" at £4,500 on ebay and enquiries found it was "one owner from new and free of all damp".

I notified Trading Standards and the ebay ad was pulled a couple of days later but the caravan came up again a month later, in a different part of the country, still apparently one owner and in pristine condition - again I reported it but have no idea what actions were taken by TC.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Roger. Which clues would they be then?????

Here is a copy of the questions that I sent to the current seller of the caravan :-

Hi. I am very interested in your SuperSirocco.
Where can I view it and what will it cost me with no PX - pay and tow-away?
Do you have the CRiS document ?
What readings are you getting with a damp meter in all parts and especially around the areas across the front & rear cap/roof-line?
What is the integrity of the floor throughout the caravan like and do all features work as they should?
I notice that there is no radio!!!
Was the Micro-wave fitted from the manufacturer - as when new?
How many owners has the caravan had?

Here is the rather sparse reply :-

No CRiS doc as I buy only from main dealers who send the log books off before hand.
I am registered with CRiS as a dealer, so I have a CRiS application form I give to customers to send off.
I have never used a damp meter in 26 years so I don't have any readings. I do a visual / finger test to find any soft spots which I can't find any in this caravan.
The floor is solid all through.
Microwave has been fitted since leaving the manufacturer.
Don't know how many owners as the CRiS checks are done by the dealers before coming to me.
I can guarantee one thing, you will not find a better example of this caravan anywhere.

Please note that the CRiS document was sent off by me the following day to selling the caravan and the dealer that took the van in the dirty deal could only have had the "New Keeper2 portion of the document which I passed to the chap that bought the caravan from me.

The current seller of the van waxes lyrical over it and has declared that it is both stunning and in beautiful condition - this is the same caravan that was condemned by the main dealer of caravans and leisure products generally.

 

[Parksy]

This topic is now closed