Dead as a Dodo!

[ProfJohnL]

It’s difficult to understand why there wasn’t a UK recall given there were recalls in other countries. I would also levy criticism at Jeep for not taking an initiative in this country. I had changes made to a Volvo that were not recalls via DVSA but initiated by Volvo under Technical Bulletins and their corporate ethos, yet had they not been installed the car would not have been like yours and stopped dead.

The recall protocols in all countries are not the same, so it's entirely possible a set of conditions might make a recall essential in some countries but not in others.

 

[Buckman]

The recall protocols in all countries are not the same, so it's entirely possible a set of conditions might make a recall essential in some countries but not in others.

The cynic in me says that maybe the manufacturer did not want the cost of replacing the unit in the UK for whatever reason. After all sometimes it seems profits are more important than lives with some companies.

 

[otherclive]

The recall protocols in all countries are not the same, so it's entirely possible a set of conditions might make a recall essential in some countries but not in others.

I understand that different countries have different approaches to safety. In the case of my car they could not be sold in Australia without a full size spare yet can you buy the Oz kit here no. So I made my own up. The Australian approach was safety derived.

 

[otherclive]

The cynic in me says that maybe the manufacturer did not want the cost of replacing the unit in the UK for whatever reason. After all sometimes it seems profits are more important than lives with some companies.

It might have been around the time Jeep we’re having severe financial troubles and I would also agree it was basically a finance versus safety decision.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If I notify the DVSA and they do nothing at least I tried and if someone is injured or even killed due to the failure of the alternator, at least there may be some recourse. If the DVSA do react, someone's life may be saved.

By all means inform the DVSA. But I'm not sure what you would like/expect them to do, especially as the model is 10 years old? The DVSA do not initiate recalls, they facilitate them.

 

[Buckman]

By all means inform the DVSA. But I'm not sure what you would like/expect them to do, especially as the model is 10 years old? The DVSA do not initiate recalls, they facilitate them.

I expect them to record the complaint whether or not they act on it is not my concern. Maybe I can get the DVSA to put it in writing that there is no climate change in the UK that requires my alternator to be replaced under a recall?

 

[Dustydog]

I expect them to record the complaint whether or not they act on it is not my concern. Maybe I can get the DVSA to put it in writing that there is no climate change in the UK that requires my alternator to be replaced under a recall?

How do you know your alternator is the original?
It is possible it was subject to a technical bulletin and was changed before you acquired the Jeep?
Not sure of the mileage but in fairness 10 years on many will say the alternator has served you well .

 

[JTQ]

Then of course it appears it was not the alternator failing that caused the vehicle to stop, but the battery being flat.
The design failing is that there here was no warning of the battery charge getting too low, at the very least you should have had some system warning even if not the specific details.

The alternator drive belt snapping would result in the alternator not working, The DVLA has not to my knowledge recalled vehicles because they feature alternator drive belts, that can break and so will stop the alternator generating and ultimately if not warned about cause an electronically managed diesel engine to stop.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Then of course it appears it was not the alternator failing that caused the vehicle to stop, but the battery being flat.
The design failing is that there here was no warning of the battery charge getting too low, at the very least you should have had some system warning even if not the specific details...

If as has been suggested its the diodes in the alternator that have failed, then perhaps until the diode(s) failed, the alternator may have been providing enough charge to prevent the charge warning to be displayed. Diodes are silicon semiconductors, and when they fail it happens very suddenly, which may have put a heavy load on the battery which dragged it down in a matter of seconds or less, hence the apparent no warning.

 

[Buckman]

How do you know your alternator is the original?
It is possible it was subject to a technical bulletin and was changed before you acquired the Jeep?
Not sure of the mileage but in fairness 10 years on many will say the alternator has served you well .

I have the full Jeep dealership service history of the vehicle including invoices and there is no mention of alternator update in any of them.

Alternators come and go and are and acceptable outlay on any vehicle. I have had one or two alternators fail in the past, but have always had more than enough warning.
In this case absolutely no warning and for a battery to completely drain within seconds cannot be right even with a dead short. The design should have incorporated a safety circuit i.e. a low resistance resistor acting as a fuse and going open circuit to prevent the battery draining within seconds.
Strangely enough although the battery was at zero for 5 days after being charged overnight it has recovered and is holding the charge.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...The design should have incorporated a safety circuit i.e. a low resistance resistor acting as a fuse and going open circuit to prevent the battery draining within seconds.
Strangely enough although the battery was at zero for 5 days after being charged overnight it has recovered and is holding the charge.

I'm pleased to see the battery may have survived, but why a
"low resistance" in a circuit which can carry very high currents? You don't want to impede the current unnecessarily in such circuits. Just a fuse would be far more appropriate.

 

[Buckman]

I'm pleased to see the battery may have survived, but why a
"low resistance" in a circuit which can carry very high currents? You don't want to impede the current unnecessarily in such circuits. Just a fuse would be far more appropriate.

I used the incorrect term and perhaps should have said low wattage resistor instead of low resistance resistor?
Either way some sort of component should have been incorporated into the design to prevent battery being drained immediately and to allow sufficient warning to safely pull over when the internal diodes short circuited.
Sometimes the design of some units do not always allow for normal types of fuse to be used and the resistor is used as easier and probably cheaper to replace if the unit is going to be refurbished.
I would think and hope that the newer alternator has been modified to prevent the vehicle from going suddenly and unexpectedly dead. I will be asking for the old alternator.

 

[JTQ]

Diodes are silicon semiconductors, and when they fail it happens very suddenly, which may have put a heavy load on the battery which dragged it down in a matter of seconds or less, hence the apparent no warning.

I am not sure a diode shorting, so it and the alternator's wiring taking the maximum cranking current of a Jeep starter battery, what some 700- 800 Amps. fits well in this case?
We have not been told of a burnt harness, an inevitable outcome from that particular scenario.

Yes, if a diode short was the mode of failure there could be a moments voltage droop the systems could not take, but post the event with things switched off, the battery would be most likely not be left absolutely dead. To achieve that would put a heck of a lot of energy into wiring likely sized for about 100 to 150 amps max.

Taking up Buckman's statement of draining the battery "immediately", with LA that just does not happen, even one capable of yielding 800 Amps endures that for several minutes, albeit with a huge voltage droop during that time. I should qualify that with, one anywhere near healthy.

 

[Buckman]

Taking up Buckman's statement of draining the battery "immediately", with LA that just does not happen, even one capable of yielding 800 Amps endures that for several minutes, albeit with a huge voltage droop during that time. I should qualify that with, one anywhere near healthy.

The battery drain down to zero I cannot explain. When the more competent breakdown technician measured with his multi meter he also came up with zero. When the Jeep technician measure it 2 days later, there was about 3v in the battery. I admit that I am surprised that the battery has recovered.

The battery is a Platinum UK019E battery lead acid battery bought . I was under the impression that as it is inside the cab under the driver's seat that it should be an AGM battery.

In March 2020 the battery was replaced by a Platinum AGM UKAGM019E battery, but a few months later the Jeep dealer pointed out that it was an AGM Start Stop battery which does not suit the car and can throw up weird sort of error messages. It was then replaced with the current battery and I have been under the impression that it was another normal AGM battery until recently.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I used the incorrect term and perhaps should have said low wattage resistor instead of low resistance resistor?

No series resistor would be appropriate in a high current circuit. You need to keep the resistance in a high current circuit as minimal as possible to avoid components generating heat and reducing efficiencies. A fuse would be the more appropriate protection device against a short circuit, though to provide a fuse capable of carrying the peak current of a starter motor would be large and relatively expensive.

In some low current systems (like many plug in USB chargers) a resistor is used in a combined function of limiting inrush current, and as a fuse in the event of sustained excess current.

In general alternator failures do not go short circuit, so if what you suspect is true, then it's fairly unusual.

As things stand we do not know the truth of what happened to your car, all we have been able to do is to speculate based on what you have told us.

 

[Buckman]

In general alternator failures do not go short circuit, so if what you suspect is true, then it's fairly unusual.

As things stand we do not know the truth of what happened to your car, all we have been able to do is to speculate based on what you have told us.

Common issue is that the diodes inside the alternator fail. Unsure if they go open circuit or short circuit. Generally I would think that they short circuit. Unfortunately I can only go on what I am told by the professionals and tow of them have indicated a possible short ciruit hence massive sudden drain on battery. Appreantly not even the Jeep mechanic can access the diodes and it is simpler to change the unit.

 

[Hutch]

For the diodes to short circuit and drain the battery to absolutly flat in a matter of minutes, without any cables burning or the main fuses blowing, is very starange and very worrying. Was there not engine managment light warning at all.

 

[JTQ]

For the diodes to short circuit and drain the battery to absolutly flat in a matter of minutes, without any cables burning or the main fuses blowing, is very starange and very worrying. Was there not engine managment light warning at all.

Exactly, and note here the quoted battery is rated with an 800 Amp CCA, so some massive alternator wiring to take that.
Plus. at 90 Ah, even if sick to half its labelled capacity, some shorted device able to dissipate the half kWh of energy dumped in a few seconds; simply things suggested don't stack up.

 

[Buckman]

For the diodes to short circuit and drain the battery to absolutly flat in a matter of minutes, without any cables burning or the main fuses blowing, is very starange and very worrying. Was there not engine managment light warning at all.

The car was taken to the dealer previous to our trip regarding the Engine Management Light issue. I was told that it had been resolved. The fault code related to an issue with transmission and only occurred if towing? However the car had a flat spot on occasions which was also mentioned to the dealer that they were supposed to resolve, but it was still there after the repair.
Prior to the major breakdown there was no EML or Battery Charging system warning lights. The car was operating perfectly normally.

 

[Buckman]

Feel totally sick now. Just had a phone call from dealer stating that the vehicle is ready for collection and the bill is over £1450! When they quoted me earlier the week it was about £1230, but that was without VAT however I was not aware that it was without VAT. Why quote a normal consumer a price without VAT? Had I known it was going to cost that much extra, I would have paid for the Jeep to be uplifted and towed to a local Indie nearer to home.

Secondly I am now told that to rectify the original fault P0741 that I originally took it to them to rectify would cost another £450 and that involved a change of transmission fluid plus the cost of the filter! The fluid and filter were changed less than 2 years ago or less than 15000 miles ago. Their argument is that perhaps the previous Jeep dealership never changed the transmission filter and the fluid is now contaminated!

On asking what happens if it does not resolve the P0741 fault by changing the filter and fluid they said then I would need to pay again for something else to be done.

I get the feeling that I have been over done well and truly!

 

[otherclive]

Feel totally sick now. Just had a phone call from dealer stating that the vehicle is ready for collection and the bill is over £1450! When they quoted me earlier the week it was about £1230, but that was without VAT however I was not aware that it was without VAT. Why quote a normal consumer a price without VAT? Had I known it was going to cost that much extra, I would have paid for the Jeep to be uplifted and towed to a local Indie nearer to home.

Secondly I am now told that to rectify the original fault P0741 that I originally took it to them to rectify would cost another £450 and that involved a change of transmission fluid plus the cost of the filter! The fluid and filter were changed less than 2 years ago or less than 15000 miles ago. Their argument is that perhaps the previous Jeep dealership never changed the transmission filter and the fluid is now contaminated!

On asking what happens if it does not resolve the P0741 fault by changing the filter and fluid they said then I would need to pay again for something else to be done.

I get the feeling that I have been over done well and truly!

Get a Jeep indie to do the transmission oil and filter change.

 

[Buckman]

Get a Jeep indie to do the transmission oil and filter change.

It should not need either so soon after being changed besides it being the original complaint to the dealership. See here. https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/p0741-jeep-wrangler/

 

[otherclive]

It should not need either so soon after being changed besides it being the original complaint to the dealership. See here. https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/p0741-jeep-wrangler/

Could one possibility be that the gearbox lock up clutch might be wearing and particulate leading to filter blockage. It’s a difficult one as the fault code could be due to a number of reasons which could lead to an expensive investigation. It’s a difficult dilemma for you.

 

[Bluetonic]

What is so special about a jeep that costs £1450 for an alternator and battery?
Scary stuff. And as it is 10 years old, definitely time to move away from main stealer service and repairs and find a good indy

 

[Buckman]

What is so special about a jeep that costs £1450 for an alternator and battery?
Scary stuff. And as it is 10 years old, definitely time to move away from main stealer service and repairs and find a good indy

Our Jeep has low mileage for its age and is in immaculate condition. Once I knew it was the alternator I did a bit of shopping around and a new replacement was just under £800 with cost of about £200 to fit.

Going on that when the Jeep dealer said over the phone to me that the cost was just over £1200, I gave them the go ahead as not much of a difference and saved the hassle and cost of uplifting the vehicle to an Indie.

At the time I never realised that the price was excluding VAT however they are insisting that they also gave me the price incl VAT. Why give me the price excl VAT in the first place?