Hope lots of you are intrigued to read this. We were very naive and brand new to caravanning when we ordered our Avondale Arrow 556 in September. Collected it on 30th October. Later that day my husband checked online on a towing site and found that our car is not heavy enough to pull the van. After a sleepless night we phoned the dealers who said we could take it back and we asked them to order the new Arrow 475 (new model) - as the Arrow 556 it had not been registered it would not be considered part exchange and we were told we would get the price difference back. Price difference is £495. However had to phone the dealers today as still no repayment and was told they had deciede to be generous and give us half of that back £250 as they would take the rest as they would have to service etc and get the new van, being delivered in March - ready for us. I was a bit miffed to say the least. Firstly they had nearly £1000 from us for extra essentials, including a spare wheel and carrier, ALKo and upgrades on their 'free' items (step, mains lead, battery etc) Also we paid cash for the van on the day we collected. We also realised today for the first time that the Arrow is a dealer special and some of the things we thought were part of the deal - like 8 year warrnty, aerial,their choice of upholstery, gas bbq point and awning heater vent cost us £400 ontop of the usual Dart price. The dealer we paid the deposit to in September did not make it known then that we could buy a basic Dart without those things. Sorry this a bit long winded- but do you think we should hold out for the full £495 - after all I am certain they will charge the person who buys our returned caravan for full seriving and delivery. I accept that there will be some servicing to do on it if it is left standing. The other thing is the after sales manager i spoke to today said that THEY had spent their time fitting OUR aLKO, spare wheel, fire extinguisher!!! Surely the amount of mark up they get on selling those items would more than cover the labour!!!! Anyone out there like to make any comments?
Fair deal from dealers????
- Thread starter scottiemad
- Start date
You would think that to ask about your towing car would be a basic question from any dealer, but sadly this is not so.
At the Malvern show recently we went round most of the dealers looking at twin axle vans, only one dealer (coincidently it was Avondale) asked what sort of car we were towing with. Bear in mind we were looking at some heavyweights.
We decided that the Fleetwood Heritage was for us and I spent a couple of hours ringing around dealers to find the best deal, again we were not asked the important question!
As it happens our towcar has plenty of size and beef to handle the big van, no thanks to the dealers.
At the Malvern show recently we went round most of the dealers looking at twin axle vans, only one dealer (coincidently it was Avondale) asked what sort of car we were towing with. Bear in mind we were looking at some heavyweights.
We decided that the Fleetwood Heritage was for us and I spent a couple of hours ringing around dealers to find the best deal, again we were not asked the important question!
As it happens our towcar has plenty of size and beef to handle the big van, no thanks to the dealers.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Scottiedottie,
Whilst I sympathise with your predicament, you are the cause of it. It is entirely up to the driver to establish that the outfit is legal. Thus it is your responsibility to check the weights. The caravan dealer is not responsible for the choice you make.
If you had asked the dealer before you purchased if your car was in fact suitable to tow the caravan and they had said yes, then you might have case under misrepresentation of goods. If you wanted to pursue this further you would need to seek professional legal advice,
Assuming it is not the dealers fault, then technically as soon as the caravan is signed over it is second hand, and that means the dealer is not obliged to resolve your difficulty at all, however it seems that have already agreed to help by accepting the van back at full value.
What on the face of it may seem like a simple swap, is commercially often more difficult, and it is not uncommon for goods to received back to stock with a restocking charge, to cover administration and any other preparation that may be needed to re-present the goods in a saleable condition. In some industries the charge can be as high as 25% , so I am guessing that the
Whilst I sympathise with your predicament, you are the cause of it. It is entirely up to the driver to establish that the outfit is legal. Thus it is your responsibility to check the weights. The caravan dealer is not responsible for the choice you make.
If you had asked the dealer before you purchased if your car was in fact suitable to tow the caravan and they had said yes, then you might have case under misrepresentation of goods. If you wanted to pursue this further you would need to seek professional legal advice,
Assuming it is not the dealers fault, then technically as soon as the caravan is signed over it is second hand, and that means the dealer is not obliged to resolve your difficulty at all, however it seems that have already agreed to help by accepting the van back at full value.
What on the face of it may seem like a simple swap, is commercially often more difficult, and it is not uncommon for goods to received back to stock with a restocking charge, to cover administration and any other preparation that may be needed to re-present the goods in a saleable condition. In some industries the charge can be as high as 25% , so I am guessing that the
Scottiedottie......I tend to agree with John L that it was your decision to purchase the caravan in the first place. So legally you have little redress and it may be best accepting what is on offer and put it down to experience.
However, I do think the dealer you went to was totally irresponsible in not asking pretty basic questions about your tow car, particularly as they most probably knew you were new to caravanning.
I would ask to speak directly to the Managing Director and voice to him your concerns regarding their responsibility, not in leal terms but morally, as reputable dealers to advise purchasers on the best car/caravan match for towing. He may, as a gesture of good will refund the full amount!
If you are not happy you can always name and shame the dealer on some Caravan Forums but unfortunately not this site because Practicl Caravan don't like anything derogitory said that points the finger at poor dealer practice, bad caravan manufacture or poor manufacturers. Practical Caravan after all have their advertising revenue to consider and this takes presidence over customer service every time.
However, I do think the dealer you went to was totally irresponsible in not asking pretty basic questions about your tow car, particularly as they most probably knew you were new to caravanning.
I would ask to speak directly to the Managing Director and voice to him your concerns regarding their responsibility, not in leal terms but morally, as reputable dealers to advise purchasers on the best car/caravan match for towing. He may, as a gesture of good will refund the full amount!
If you are not happy you can always name and shame the dealer on some Caravan Forums but unfortunately not this site because Practicl Caravan don't like anything derogitory said that points the finger at poor dealer practice, bad caravan manufacture or poor manufacturers. Practical Caravan after all have their advertising revenue to consider and this takes presidence over customer service every time.
BeemerMal wrote: Practicl Caravan don't like anything derogitory said that points the finger at poor dealer practice
Actually, not the case.
I have been pleasantly surprised that my rants against the Pirates who call themselves 'Wandahones' (look for the skull & crossbones and you'll know you've arrived) have never been removed.
Kudos to PC for allowing freedom of speech.
Actually, not the case.
I have been pleasantly surprised that my rants against the Pirates who call themselves 'Wandahones' (look for the skull & crossbones and you'll know you've arrived) have never been removed.
Kudos to PC for allowing freedom of speech.
BeemerMal wrote: Practicl Caravan don't like anything derogitory said that points the finger at poor dealer practice
Geist wrote: Actually, not the case.
I have been pleasantly surprised that my rants against the Pirates who call themselves 'Wandahones' (look for the skull & crossbones and you'll know you've arrived) have never been removed. Kudos to PC for allowing freedom of speech.
There you have it Scottiedottie....Go ahead, name and shame this dealer on the PC forum. Lets see if it stays on because when I openly complained about the terrible customer service from the Swift Group my post was removed!
Geist wrote: Actually, not the case.
I have been pleasantly surprised that my rants against the Pirates who call themselves 'Wandahones' (look for the skull & crossbones and you'll know you've arrived) have never been removed. Kudos to PC for allowing freedom of speech.
There you have it Scottiedottie....Go ahead, name and shame this dealer on the PC forum. Lets see if it stays on because when I openly complained about the terrible customer service from the Swift Group my post was removed!
As i see it you choose to buy the caravan and as far as the dealer is concerned he'll sell it ..
Its your responsiblity to make sure your car is good enough to pull it (not the dealer)..
You should have check all the details of car and caravan before you made the order ..
We always do our own checks before buying car or caravan (Never trust a salesman)
Rita
Its your responsiblity to make sure your car is good enough to pull it (not the dealer)..
You should have check all the details of car and caravan before you made the order ..
We always do our own checks before buying car or caravan (Never trust a salesman)
Rita
Forum etiquette says, "You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct."
There's a saying, "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
Mods may sometimes turn a blind eye to posts which mention poor service, as long as they avoid anything that could be libellous.
Of course, when posters later stand on the parapet, waving a flag, shouting, "We got away with it" - well, it doesn't really help!
Forum etiquette says, "You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct."
There's a saying, "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
Mods may sometimes turn a blind eye to posts which mention poor service, as long as they avoid anything that could be libellous.
Of course, when posters later stand on the parapet, waving a flag, shouting, "We got away with it" - well, it doesn't really help!
I agree with the comments above that customers should accept resposibilty for and not blame someone else for a bad decision or a mistake. But -
Surely, as an individual purchasing perhaps 1 caravan every 5 years they are not the expert in the transaction especially if this is their 1st purchase. The dealer sells Hundreds every year and thus is an expert.
The dealer therefor should be able to pro actively ask pertinent questions like - do you have a car with a tow bar and is it big enough.
The purchaser may not know the questions to ask and may (as in this case) miss something vital.
With modern technology of computers and printers, surely the expert dealer or the industry should be able to produce a standard check list containing the basics and more, like do you have the correct tow ball, do your electrics work, will your current equipment such as waste container, water roll etc fit, which gas do you need and will it fit etc.
As far as safe towing is concerned I beleive it should be mandatory for a dealer to ensure that the customer is able to conform to the Law and basic safety before the transaction is finalised.
Surely, as an individual purchasing perhaps 1 caravan every 5 years they are not the expert in the transaction especially if this is their 1st purchase. The dealer sells Hundreds every year and thus is an expert.
The dealer therefor should be able to pro actively ask pertinent questions like - do you have a car with a tow bar and is it big enough.
The purchaser may not know the questions to ask and may (as in this case) miss something vital.
With modern technology of computers and printers, surely the expert dealer or the industry should be able to produce a standard check list containing the basics and more, like do you have the correct tow ball, do your electrics work, will your current equipment such as waste container, water roll etc fit, which gas do you need and will it fit etc.
As far as safe towing is concerned I beleive it should be mandatory for a dealer to ensure that the customer is able to conform to the Law and basic safety before the transaction is finalised.
What car do you have?
An Avondale Dart 556 has a MTPLW of 1280 kgs, which using the 85% guidelines gives a kerbweight for the car of 1506 kgs.
An Avondale Dart 556 has a MTPLW of 1280 kgs, which using the 85% guidelines gives a kerbweight for the car of 1506 kgs.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Thorpedo.
The law is quite clear regarding the onus on the driver to ensure that the vehicle (and trailer) are road legal. This responsibility cannot be deferred to any other party, so it is not even conceivable to be an optional choice to defer it .
I do agree that a good sales person should alert caravan owners to check on their towing arrangements, but I would be very dubious of relying on a caravan sales person to be sufficiently competent and well informed to be able to have the relevant accurate details of every potential tow car and system.
There are many caravan related web sites that do provide information that would help new caravaners to select a wide range of suitable products, but its is knowing where to find them, and of course many will be biased towards products of their own manufacture. This is where consumer choice comes in.
As for your last paragraph, you are suggesting that caravan sales people should be making an assessment of the capabilities of a driver. That is a job only for an approved driving examiner. I do not think that a caravan dealer or employee would be qualified or want to be placed in that position.
The law is quite clear regarding the onus on the driver to ensure that the vehicle (and trailer) are road legal. This responsibility cannot be deferred to any other party, so it is not even conceivable to be an optional choice to defer it .
I do agree that a good sales person should alert caravan owners to check on their towing arrangements, but I would be very dubious of relying on a caravan sales person to be sufficiently competent and well informed to be able to have the relevant accurate details of every potential tow car and system.
There are many caravan related web sites that do provide information that would help new caravaners to select a wide range of suitable products, but its is knowing where to find them, and of course many will be biased towards products of their own manufacture. This is where consumer choice comes in.
As for your last paragraph, you are suggesting that caravan sales people should be making an assessment of the capabilities of a driver. That is a job only for an approved driving examiner. I do not think that a caravan dealer or employee would be qualified or want to be placed in that position.
John L
I don't beleive I suggested in my last paragraph that sales people should asses the competance of a driver. I used the words 'basic safety'. It is in the interest of you and I and every other road user that at the point of sale, the Car and Caravan combo conform to safe weight ratios. (I'm refering to weight ratios and functioning caravan lights realy, not the competance of the driver, or the rd worthiness of his car)
I would expect the Caravan to be in Rd worthy conmdition.
The Seller of a Caravan was prosecuted in my area last year for knowingly supplying a dengerous van. And rightly so.
I agree with you that the ultimate onus of the safety of the outfit must rest with the owner (as per my original 1st paragraph), but as it can be seen by the unfortunate possition Scottiedottie was in, the purchase is not an expert, but the Caravan sales people should be.
When I purchased a new Caravan this year, 1800kg max, the salesman enquired about my towing vehicle and checked it on a website confirming that the combo was ok when I made placed my order, he also did the same when I purchased my previous caravan.
When I hooked up to drive away he had his technician check the hitch and that the lights were working.
He was clearly a responsible individual with a concern for the ever increasing RD population.
I'm begining to appreciate his dilegence even more.
It would have been interesting to know whether he would have handed over the keys if I'd turned up in an inapropriate vehicle, I'll ask next time I'm in the dealership.
I don't beleive I suggested in my last paragraph that sales people should asses the competance of a driver. I used the words 'basic safety'. It is in the interest of you and I and every other road user that at the point of sale, the Car and Caravan combo conform to safe weight ratios. (I'm refering to weight ratios and functioning caravan lights realy, not the competance of the driver, or the rd worthiness of his car)
I would expect the Caravan to be in Rd worthy conmdition.
The Seller of a Caravan was prosecuted in my area last year for knowingly supplying a dengerous van. And rightly so.
I agree with you that the ultimate onus of the safety of the outfit must rest with the owner (as per my original 1st paragraph), but as it can be seen by the unfortunate possition Scottiedottie was in, the purchase is not an expert, but the Caravan sales people should be.
When I purchased a new Caravan this year, 1800kg max, the salesman enquired about my towing vehicle and checked it on a website confirming that the combo was ok when I made placed my order, he also did the same when I purchased my previous caravan.
When I hooked up to drive away he had his technician check the hitch and that the lights were working.
He was clearly a responsible individual with a concern for the ever increasing RD population.
I'm begining to appreciate his dilegence even more.
It would have been interesting to know whether he would have handed over the keys if I'd turned up in an inapropriate vehicle, I'll ask next time I'm in the dealership.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Thorpedo
It was your use of the words 'mandatory' and 'conform' both of which have strong connotations, and are typically used where a legal compliance is a requirement.
As the outfit's safety is the responsibility of the driver, it follows that anyone else checking safety even just basic safety is actually checking the driver has complied, which is an assessment.
In my mind this then leads to other questions such as:
Is the assessor qualified to make the assessment?
What standards are they assessing against?
And :-
What happens if the driver fails the assessment?
Something of a can of worms if it is left to commercial operations not specialising in this work.
It should be sufficient for the caravan dealer to remind customers to check their limits.
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