Leisure battery. Gas. And electric.

[mickyriff]

Hi. Just after some advice on a couple of things if possible.
My caravan is on EHU all the time. Ehu cable (with 240 plug) into an extension lead then Plugged into a plug socket is my friends house (i live in the caravan)

At the moment i do not have a leisure battery. So everything is run through the Ehu.
But i still have my 12v switch in the on position so its lit up red. (See pic)

My friend told me that the plug in his house had started to become really hot and the electricity bill had gone up. At the time over the last couple of weeks. I have had the heating on a lot and left on. And also the use of an electric plug in heater. When he rang i felt my truma heating Spur which was also hot. On keeping it off for a while. Both have cooled down. And i’m looking at gettin a gas bottle for the heating.
To cut down on electric bills.

My main questions really are.

1. If i got a new leisure battery. Can i use that to solely run the caravan.( Tv. Fridge. Heating. Lights. Sockets. ) with the ehu turned off? So i wouldnt need it on ehu all the time. Say at night when its getting colder.
(I’m a bit weary of this. As my last battery leaked while i was away and was redhot wen i got back. The smell of hydrosulfide. Was immense. And lasted weeks till i stripped a lot of wood out that soaked it all up) is this because i had left the 12v switch on and electric. While i was away for a week.

2. Should i have my 12v switch switched on. All the time. Even when theres no battery connected.

3. Most cost effective way of running the caravan in winter.

I am really new to caravanning. But have a good knowledge of building and touch on plumbing and electrics too.
So laymans terms for the caravanning please haha.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[Jcloughie]

On hook up, you would be best to have a battery in circuit, even a small one, to smooth out the voltage. If the systems are working properly there should be no problem leaving things on.

To channel all your power through a 13 mp socket could be pushing things and leaving little margin for safety. It should also ideally be wired with 2.5 mm cable. (which it difficult to wire into a 13 amp plug). Though 1.5 mm is OK (just).

You could use gas, and without a hook up, a battery would be needed to power ignitions.

I would suggest, if this is long term. to get a large gas propane bottle to the side of the van. This provides cheaper gas than smaller bottles. And use the gas for heating. But keep the hook up for lighting and charging.

Many do not appreciate that any form of heating is expensive and runs away with electricity. No wonder your friend feels the affects in his pocket.

John

 

[Beardy]

Hi. Just after some advice on a couple of things if possible.
My caravan is on EHU all the time. Ehu cable (with 240 plug) into an extension lead then Plugged into a plug socket is my friends house (i live in the caravan)

At the moment i do not have a leisure battery. So everything is run through the Ehu.
But i still have my 12v switch in the on position so its lit up red. (See pic)

My friend told me that the plug in his house had started to become really hot and the electricity bill had gone up. At the time over the last couple of weeks. I have had the heating on a lot and left on. And also the use of an electric plug in heater. When he rang i felt my truma heating Spur which was also hot. On keeping it off for a while. Both have cooled down. And i’m looking at gettin a gas bottle for the heating.
To cut down on electric bills.

My main questions really are.

1. If i got a new leisure battery. Can i use that to solely run the caravan.( Tv. Fridge. Heating. Lights. Sockets. ) with the ehu turned off? So i wouldnt need it on ehu all the time. Say at night when its getting colder.
(I’m a bit weary of this. As my last battery leaked while i was away and was redhot wen i got back. The smell of hydrosulfide. Was immense. And lasted weeks till i stripped a lot of wood out that soaked it all up) is this because i had left the 12v switch on and electric. While i was away for a week.

2. Should i have my 12v switch switched on. All the time. Even when theres no battery connected.

3. Most cost effective way of running the caravan in winter.

I am really new to caravanning. But have a good knowledge of building and touch on plumbing and electrics too.
So laymans terms for the caravanning please haha.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Hi Mikyriff, I'm fairly new to caravaning but I'll answer as best I can.

1. You can't run electric heating from a leisure battery. 240V sockets won't work unless you have an inverter fitted. Fridge won't work. Lights will be ok.

2. I think you need the 12V switched on for the lights to work.

3. You're probably running it the most cost effective way at the moment. Bottled gas, especially calor in small bottles is a very expensive form of energy. The bigger bottles work out cheaper but I'm not sure how big you can go on a caravan.

The problem is you are almost certainly overloading the 13 amp socket in the house with both the caravan heating and the plug in heater on at the same time. If they're both 2kW you're drawing over 16 amps, contrary to popular belief a 13 amp fuse won't blow at 13.1 amps, it will take 16 amps indefinitely, but the plug, socket and cable will get very hot.

You need to restrict your use to one heater (plug in or caravan). It might be an idea to buy a plug in electric meter so you'll know exactly how much you use and you can pay your friend accordingly, I guess that you don't want to fall out with him.

Amazon.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

do you live permanently in your caravan as generally there is no need to the caravan to be heated 24/7?

 

[mickyriff]

do you live permanently in your caravan as generally there is no need to the caravan to be heated 24/7?

Yes permanently. Its my home for the foreseeable.

 

[mickyriff]

Hi Mikyriff, I'm fairly new to caravaning but I'll answer as best I can.

1. You can't run electric heating from a leisure battery. 240V sockets won't work unless you have an inverter fitted. Fridge won't work. Lights will be ok.

2. I think you need the 12V switched on for the lights to work.

3. You're probably running it the most cost effective way at the moment. Bottled gas, especially calor in small bottles is a very expensive form of energy. The bigger bottles work out cheaper but I'm not sure how big you can go on a caravan.

The problem is you are almost certainly overloading the 13 amp socket in the house with both the caravan heating and the plug in heater on at the same time. If they're both 2kW you're drawing over 16 amps, contrary to popular belief a 13 amp fuse won't blow at 13.1 amps, it will take 16 amps indefinitely, but the plug, socket and cable will get very hot.

You need to restrict your use to one heater (plug in or caravan). It might be an idea to buy a plug in electric meter so you'll know exactly how much you use and you can pay your friend accordingly, I guess that you don't want to fall out with him.

Amazon.co.uk

Thanks.
But if i got one of them plug in meters. Would that not read his house to. As i’m plugged into his house. Or would it only read from my mains consumer?

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is really worrying that you are trying to live full time in a touring caravan and relying on the 16A EHU through a 13A plug and socket for all your energy needs.

As Beardy has pointed out that trying to run all the appliance's on mains 230V ac at the same time, is a dangerous strategy, especially in cooler weather, as you have already seen the signs of power leads and under rated plugs and wiring overheating.

Unfortunately a conventional 12V 120Ah caravan battery only has about 1.2 kWh of energy, which is about a third of the power you can get from the mains in just 20 minutes, so it is not a realistic alternative to mains supply.

The big mains power users are space ,water heating and cooking, but normal touring caravans use heaters that can use mains or LPG to carry the big energy load.

In terms of cost, LPG can be price competitive with mains power but not the small calor bottles, you should be looking at getting larger propane bottles from commercial builders merchants.

Touring caravans are not actually designed for full time living, and consequently the levels of insulation are nowhere near as good as you would find in proper living accomodation, this may be tolerable for holidays but its shortcoming may be more apparent with long term usage.

If you are living this way long term, then it might be worth looking at getting a proper bottle storage cage to ensure the bottles are securely stored upright.

 

[Milkfloat]

The main issue is the two electric heaters running at the same time. This is going to take you right up to the limit and maybe even beyond what you should be running. For sure, drop the plug in heater. You could look into refillable gas bottle, like Safefill or if you want less initial outlay then a 47KG flowgas or calor bottle would be a good bet. You could use that for your main heating, cooking and refrigeration and only use electric to boost the heating when required.
It would be fair to the bill payer if you fitted a meter, a cheap way would be the right smart plug which you plug your hook up cable into. That way you can pay for what you use.

 

[Beardy]

Thanks.
But if i got one of them plug in meters. Would that not read his house to. As i’m plugged into his house. Or would it only read from my mains consumer?

You would plug it into the mains socket in his house then plug the extension lead to the caravan into it. It only measures the electric going out of it, in this case through the extension lead to the caravan.

 

[Beardy]

Done a bit of digging and @ProfJohnL is right, calor gas is competitive with mains electric. 6kg bottle = 30p per kWh, 13kg = 25p per kWh and 47kg = 20p per kWh compared to 28.79p per kWh for electric. Even cheaper if you can switch to a refillable bottle.

Switch to gas for heating and your fridge, just use electric for lights, TV etc. I'd still get a plug in meter so your friend can see how much electric your using though, for the sake of a tenner I wouldn't risk falling out with him when he's doing you a favour.

Sorry for the duff advice earlier, I was genuinely surprised to find calor gas was cheaper than electric.

https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/cost-running-gas-central-heating/

 

[Jcloughie]

Thanks.
But if i got one of them plug in meters. Would that not read his house to. As i’m plugged into his house. Or would it only read from my mains consumer?

That sort pf meter only registers usage on what is plugged into it. ie. your caravan.

John

 

[Jcloughie]

Done a bit of digging and @ProfJohnL is right, calor gas is competitive with mains electric. 6kg bottle = 30p per kWh, 13kg = 25p per kWh and 47kg = 20p per kWh compared to 28.79p per kWh for electric. Even cheaper if you can switch to a refillable bottle.

Switch to gas for heating and your fridge, just use electric for lights, TV etc. I'd still get a plug in meter so your friend can see how much electric your using though, for the sake of a tenner I wouldn't risk falling out with him when he's doing you a favour.

Sorry for the duff advice earlier, I was genuinely surprised to find calor gas was cheaper than electric.

https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/cost-running-gas-central-heating/

Good advice, but may not be totally accurate as gas is not 100% efficient. Nevertheless, its the way to go.

John

 

[otherclive]

A Safefill or gaslow bottle would be a good option and they are readily sold when no longer required. Do not be tempted to buy a Calor cylinder refill kit as sold on eBay. Not safe. Price up Flogas who are a competitor to Calor and they may be cheaper than Calor.

 

[JTQ]

All this is happening before we move into the really cold part of the year, things can only get worse when we do.
This particular van and or your heating means are not compatible with the use of the van as an all seasons dwelling.

As others have said you are going to need to get some part of the energy to heat the van from using gas, or limit the area of your van you heat to the present temperatures.
As also said the amount of energy any logically sized battery is trivial relative to what comes from the EHU or LPG exchange bottles, so will not alter the picture. Plus, any energy it holds has to come from the EHU anyway or a solar system, and there is very little usable solar energy on many winter days.
Some vans are way better designed for use in cold times, than others, not all are created equal in this regard.

Sit on and use an electric blanket with the van's space heating temperature set lower, to save on energy used.
Or linger in the local till closing time!

In addition, to have any long term chance of retaining your friendship it would be wise to have one of those 13A plug fitting energy meters so you can be sure you are more than paying your dues.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A Safefill or gaslow bottle would be a good option and they are readily sold when no longer required. Do not be tempted to buy a Calor cylinder refill kit as sold on eBay. Not safe. Price up Flogas who are a competitor to Calor and they may be cheaper than Calor.

And illegal to use.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Oops...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Done a bit of digging and @ProfJohnL is right, calor gas is competitive with mains electric. 6kg bottle = 30p per kWh, 13kg = 25p per kWh and 47kg = 20p per kWh compared to 28.79p per kWh for electric. Even cheaper if you can switch to a refillable bottle.

Switch to gas for heating and your fridge, just use electric for lights, TV etc. I'd still get a plug in meter so your friend can see how much electric your using though, for the sake of a tenner I wouldn't risk falling out with him when he's doing you a favour.

Sorry for the duff advice earlier, I was genuinely surprised to find calor gas was cheaper than electric.

https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/cost-running-gas-central-heating/

For the record I did not suggest that " Calor gas" would be competitive, I actually suggested LPG propane from the likes of builders merchants which is usually considerably cheaper than calor's inflated prices.

I disagree with using gas for the fridge when an EHU is available. the security of supply is far better for food safety, and more convenient. In practice the thermostat is satisfied it uses no power, and when it is cooling it only consumes about 120W which averages out to to about 2kWh or less per day.

 

[Hutch]

A Safefill or gaslow bottle would be a good option and they are readily sold when no longer required. Do not be tempted to buy a Calor cylinder refill kit as sold on eBay. Not safe. Price up Flogas who are a competitor to Calor and they may be cheaper than Calor.

The very large calor gas cylinders the 47kg are £95 which would end up being quite competitive. Especially for heating and cooking.
Mickyriff, I know all this information will be confusing , but I hope it helps you.
Last year as our house gas boiler wasn't over efficient we bought a small oil filled electric heater, which worked out to be very efficient and not too expensive to run.

 

[Anseo]

I would suggest trying to limit electricity use as much as possible by using alternative power sources.

A diesel heater (heating and hot water versions also available) are economical (red diesel, parafin and HVO).

Clean heat, very efficient at warming up and maintaning temperature in a space such as a caravan.
they also come with remote controls and timer settings etc.

Depending on what type\model\brand that you choose they can be a low cost purchase and are easy to install as a DIY project, the entire installation kit comes with the heater, some people find the 'clicking' noise from the fuel pump an annoyance if installed in the interior of the space to be heated, but I understand that a silent fuel pump is now available.

This will be my 4th year running one in my garage, all trouble free so far, I have not needed to purchase any spare parts as yet, parts are readily available at very reasonable prices.

 

[Dustydog]

Sounds like your “friend” isn’t happy about the electricity cost.
Talk to a professional electrician. It is possible to wire a separate circuit with all the correct protections and a 16 amp socket for your use. Plus the spark could fit you with a payg meter or similar. That may satisfy your friend.
We caravan all year round and find 16 amp EHU is adequate .All the previous comments have explained everything else.
Still cold? Sorry to say more jumpers 😉

 

[Buckman]

During winter you would be very lucky if a 6kg bottle lasted you 4 days. Proven fact! Cost of refill is about £25 so about 7x25= £175. We have a 7.5kg Safefill bottle and it would probably need to be refilled after 5 days at a cost of about £11 so 6x11=£66. You can get a 10kg Safefill bottle.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you are living full-time in a caravan, you don't want the worry of running out of fuel for heating every few days. It's bound to catch you out at some very inconvenient moment. I'm sure space is already at a premium, so finding the correct space to fit another heater, with its flue and duct work and the cost of purchase and installation might be a cost too far.

Being a touring caravan, you will already have a highly efficient heater fitted. When used on gas alone it's virtually silent and simply convects heat into the caravan. But you also have the option to use blown air to circulate the heated air. You don't need another heater.

What you need is a means to run the heater you have, and switching to larger gas cylinders provides a cost economy of scale, and each cylinder will take proportionately longer to empty. The convenience can be further improved by using two cylinders with an automatic change over valve. These normal indicate which cylinder is empty, and allow it to be swapped out with out interruption of the glass supply to the caravan.

As for the type of gas, Butane LPG cylinders will not work reliably in temperatures below 5C but Propane cylinders will continue to supply gas for a caravan in temperatures below -30C so for winter use Propane is the LPG to use.
Going for larger cylinders may mean an external safety and security cage. But your gas supplier should be able to advise.

 

[Buckman]

Do you need the heating on all day? You do not mention the brand and year of your caravan and whether it is a single to twin axle. On older caravans the insulation was not great and the gas heaters were not that efficient.

A lot of heat can be lost through the ducting especially if the ducting for the blown air runs underneath the caravan. On EHU and using electric for heating expect to use about £5 a day during the winter period.

 

[trevormonty]

A 12V battery won't acheive any power savings as it needs charging from 240V supply.
The big power consumers are. Caravan central heating 2kw, hotwater 1kw, fridge 120W plus what ever you've got plugged in eg another heater. NB hotwater doesn't draw 1kw continously just occasionally to keep water warm more after your've used hotwater. Fridge isn't that much over 24hrs probably 60p.

I'd run heating on gas while you are a wake as it can produce more heat and you aren't likely to blow friends power outlet fuse. When you go to bed switch to electricity and turn temperature down eg 12-15C and use anothe blanket. Also pull curtains to help keep heat in. If not using hotwater for shower, then just turn it off and boil jug for washing up water. Alternatively turn hotwater on using gas 1/2 hr before your shower to heat it up, then turn off for rest of time.

I don't know what your friend is charging to camp in his driveway but should be considerably less than renting, savings would pay for alot of gas even it is more expensive per kwh. May want to buy additional bottles so not having to do refill trips every other day.

 

[Ukdave2002]

If you have a long term electric hook up to a domestic supply I'd add a Earth Ground Spike. Without going into all the technical stuff, its possible to have an undetected Neutral fault in a domestic supply that could make hooking up a caravan lethal, essentially you could get a shock between the physical ground and the vans metal frame.

Its the reason that EHU's on sites have different (to domestic) and specific Neutral / ground arrangements and why you never find the hook up to mains adapter is supplied new by a van manufacturer.

Granted this is a low risk, but a real one, and the reason that I always check the caravan metalwork with a neon screwdriver if connected up to the domestic supply, yes I realise a neon test is not fail safe, but if I have an neutral fault to the supply and a faulty neon tester my luck is probably out anyway!