Ownership Check

[David_5127637]

I want to buy a two year old top of the range caravan by a private sale. I have seen the van and the seller and I have agreed a sale. However, how can I know the seller owns the caravan? I have done a CRIS check but there is no registered keeper. Every other catagory is OK. The seller has no documentation but the dealer who sold it to him confirms the sale to him.
How can I know he has the right to sell it? We are talking big money.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

A 2 year old van and the seller has no purchase documentation. hmy: Alarm bells ring, walk away.

 

[Parksy]

The original purchaser may not have completed the CHRIS registration but other documentation such as receipts, a bill of sale, service history etc would tend to lend credence to his claim of ownership.
You would need evidence that there is no outstanding finance on the caravan to be sure however.
Private sale = Caveat Emptor! Buyer Beware, on a private sale you have very few legal rights.
If the sum of money is a significant amount with respect I'd strongly advise you to buy from a reputable dealership where you will have some redress if things go wrong.
This top of the range van may seem to be a good bargain but if you lose your money what sort of bargain is that?
Why risk your hard earned money on a dodgy deal when you may be able to negotiate a good deal with full legal backing and no nagging doubts?

 

[Dustydog]

David

Walk away now before it ends in tears. There are plenty of good caravans available complete with a pedigree.

 

[paws]

Just to add to the wise words that have already been expressed..... you ask
"How can I know the seller owns the caravan"
The answer is straightforward...
you can't

As has already been said in effect if you have already agreed to purchase the caravan then it's a question of making sufficient enquiries to satisfy yourself that there is more than a reasonable chance that the seller has legal title to the van and is therefore entitled to transfer ownership of it to you.

It's important to remember that, in broad terms, if you pay over money when someone does not have legal title then the "rightful owner" is still the owner and you have lost your money!

I would be very suspicious of a seller who cannot produce documentation, he should have a receipt for his purchase, CRis registration, insurance receipts for premiums paid over the period of ownership, service records of maintenance undertaken, receipts for a storage facility if used and of course records of sites visited....... Caravan/camping Club membership etc etc....If the seller has none of these at best it displays a cavalier attitude to his caravanning activities that may be a significant predictor of potential future troubles.... or at worst..well I'll leave that to you to decide!

None of the above are proof definite of title, but nevertheless provide some crumb of comfort....

Like the other experienced caravanners have said it may be wise to walk away from the situation and keep a tight hold on your wallet...

Good luck and I hope it works out well for you
Regards
paws

 

[Gafferbill]

Do not even think about it.......Walk Away.

You need to be buying provenance not just the caravan and that means an indisputable document trail in my book.

 

[Jules_ht]

Did the dealer confirm whether it was bought outright or on finance? If they confirm a cash sale to the specific person selling now I don't necessarily see a deal-breaking problem.

Seems a bit like buying a car without service history- a bit of a risk but if you now and accept that, and it's reflected in the price why not? Stick your plates on it, CRiS register it in your name, and off you go.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Seems a bit like buying a car without service history.

Not quite - at least a car has a registration document, even if it only shows the registered keeper and not the owner.

 

[Raywood]

I still had the purchase receipt and service history when I sold our last caravan after six years. If the seller cannot be bothered to keep this I wonder what care he took of the caravan and if he is indeed the owner. If the caravan is not his and he has nor right to sell it you do not get ownership so walk away it is not worth the risk..

 

[David_5127637]

Right - here is an update.
The seller gave me the wrong VIN number - the last digit was a 6 in stead of a 5. I ran the CRiS check again which confirmed him as the registered keeper, no outstanding finance and no damage repair. Next, the dealer who sold the van to him confirmed the sale which confirmed the date he advised it was acquired. The van was viewed at his registered address.
As a private sale I understand that the law has recently been changed. If you purchase in good faith after reasonable checks then a previous "owner" cannot pursue you for the item. This does not apply to a purchase from a trade dealer who is supposed to verify ownership before selling the item.
Re condition, the caravan is in pristine condition and the seller is purchasing a new handbook. The dealer who sold it to him has confirmed service history.

 

[paws]

Hi David,
Its looking not quite as bad, but.......
if it was the vendor who said:
As a private sale I understand that the law has recently been changed. If you purchase in good faith after reasonable checks then a previous "owner" cannot pursue you for the item.

Then I would not just walk away from the deal .... I would run away and not look back!
That information is wrong
Have a look here:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/protection-for-the-consumer/consumer-contracts/what-if-the-seller-doesn-t-have-the-right-to-sell/

If the deal seems a good one, ask yourself the reason why?

Find out the typical selling price of a van of that make, model age and condition.... compare that with the price you are being asked to pay...... if there is a difference then you need to find out the reason why.

Its your call of course, but don't let what seems like a good deal blind to the potential pitfalls...
If the vendor cannot transfer to you good title then you have paid out your money for nothing!

If the rightful owner does turn up and can prove his title to the caravan then he is entitled to tow it away, irrespective of how much money you may have handed over to the person who said he was the owner but actually wasn't....( and to rub salt into the wound you will be expected to facilitate the towing away.....)
Regards
paws

 

[ProfJohnL]

Right - here is an update.
The seller gave me the wrong VIN number - the last digit was a 6 in stead of a 5. I ran the CRiS check again which confirmed him as the registered keeper, no outstanding finance and no damage repair. Next, the dealer who sold the van to him confirmed the sale which confirmed the date he advised it was acquired. The van was viewed at his registered address.
As a private sale I understand that the law has recently been changed. If you purchase in good faith after reasonable checks then a previous "owner" cannot pursue you for the item. This does not apply to a purchase from a trade dealer who is supposed to verify ownership before selling the item.
Re condition, the caravan is in pristine condition and the seller is purchasing a new handbook. The dealer who sold it to him has confirmed service history.

Hello David,

I have to say that I concur with advice given to you. If there is anything at all that does not smell of roses about the goods, the person selling the goods, the location, the price or the description, sadly the chances are there is something dodgy - walk away.

Perhaps with the revision to the serial number which is apparently confirming what you have been told by the vendor and the original supplier
you may have more confidence in the purchase - enough to convince you to proceed?

Looking at it from a slightly different perspective, if the error in the serial number had not been made in the first instance, would you have had any doubts about buying it? - probably not, and you probably would not have brought the subject up on the forum.

Now, I am intrigued by your comment about the "change in the law" If such a change had been made, as it represents a fundamental shift in one of the basic tenet of our common law of ownership and title to goods and chattels, I am pretty certain it would have been headline news on reputable advice sites such as the CAB, the Consumer Association - Which?, and the Money Saving Expert.etc. It is strange that as far as I can see from checking their web sites - no such new changes have been evident. Consequently I have to conclude there is no change to the general law on such matters - However and this is where the internet is a poor source of definitive legal information, perhaps what you refer to was a specific case, where the circumstances did not fit the general pattern, and a judicial ruling was made for the case.

The ball is now in your court.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi David,
while i agree with the post from the prof, "no such change in legislation exists". and of course the phrase buyer beware should not be ignored. I tend to view thing slightly differently IF some of the posters are to be believed there would not be any private sales, as you would not have the dealer protection on the sale.
yet thousands of private sales go through yearly without them all being dodgy deals by conmen.
the best you can do is check things out do research and then decide.
from the posts it seems you have done just that, the seller is the owner at a perminent address confirmed by the dealer
there is no outstanding finance and he has the Cris registration. in his name, the vans in good nick and at a price much better than a dealer special or you would not be thinking about it!!, so what's the problem, if you really want more proof ask to see some photos of him using the van or a insurance certificate from last year.

when I sold mine, it was by private sale, on the face of it it was a bit cheap also, but the price was set at an average of what a few dealers would buy it for and the forecourt price they would ask. I just want it gone but without being ripped of by dealers wanting a quick buck, and 100% profit,
I put an ad on gumtree and had a nice couple from derbyshire come look at it, I set it up so they could see everything worked, gave him my damp meter to check it with and left them to have a good look round while I made coffee.
showed them the CRIS registration and the original dealer receipt for the cash sale, the service book for the first 5 years [dealer contract] but none for the last 4 has I did my own servicing.
they left to have lunch and a think about it and came back 1hour later with the full cash asking price, hung it on their car and went. both of us very happy.

3 months later I had an e-mail from them saying they had used the van a couple of times and were very pleased with it,
also had a letter from CRIS asking if the ownership transfer was correct as i had forgot to sign the papers, DOH. so at least that works.

 

[David_5127637]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.
The caravan is at the CRIS registered address, the dealer confirms that he sold it to him at that address, I have seen photos of him using the caravan, he is fastidious in the care of the van and knows all about it and it's systems, we have met his family at his home. I am not sure what further checks can be done.
The advice in change of the law on private sales was given to me by a local retired accountant friend but so far I too have not been able to verify that.
I am particularly keen to get this model van and have searched the country. The dealer in Lincolnshire that specialises in them advises they are like "hen's teeth" hence my still persisting with this sale. The price asked is not much different from a dealer price. The seller advises that he has re.quested and is buying replacement handbook. He is selling privately as he doesn't want another caravan.
Generally, it seems that getting "proof" of ownership is near impossible even if a seller has a receipt for an item. The item could have been sold to someone else meantime!

 

[Parksy]

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your progress with regard to this caravan.
Many forumites err on the side of caution becvause over the years we've seen hearbreaking threads on this and other forums which have involved genuine people being cheated.
You appear to have done everything possible to follow some of the good advice given and you are now at decision time.
The CRIS system isn't completely fail safe because there is no legal obligation for any owner to hold proof of ownership in the case of caravans.
Good luck if you go ahead, please keep us posted on how much you enjoy owning the caravan and any caravan breaks that you have.

 

[David_5127637]

Many thanks for your oversight. I will keep the forum posted on the, hopefully successful, outcome.

 

[Jules_ht]

IF some of the posters are to be believed there would not be any private sales

Exactly. If you've got the spare cash handy to pay a sizeable premium to buy from a dealer, and see the cost of the extra security as being well spent, then fair play, go ahead- otherwise buy private (but be sensible) and pay less (with the small risk that is associated with doing that).

I don't know what more proof could possibly be provided that it is the current owner's to sell?

Obviously it's your money and I can't indemnify you, and it's a lot of money so jitters are to be expected, but personally I do hope you don't miss out on the van due to unnecessary over-caution and that you do get the van you want at a fair price.

 

[Dustydog]

The Law remains unchanged. Any person who had and has good legal title to their property remains the legal owner even if it is stolen and sold on.
The choice is yours but I am sure from the posts on here you will be able to assess the financial risk factors.

 

[Gafferbill]

The caravan is at the CRIS registered address, the dealer confirms that he sold it to him at that address, I have seen photos of him using the caravan, he is fastidious in the care of the van and knows all about it and it's systems, we have met his family at his home. I am not sure what further checks can be done.

...........that's called provenance which you did not tell us about in you original post.

If you do buy it take it easy first time through those 12 feet wide gates :cheer:

 

[David_5127637]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.
I now have the caravan together with Bill of Sale, CRiS registration, Insurance with Caravan Club, acknowledgement from Swift that the caravan is now registered with them in my name so hopefully it is a done deal.
I have had it in and out of the gate but it isn't easy as I need to use the recently fitted 4 X 4 Powertouch movers with the tow-car on the road with hazard flashers and stopping passing traffic for a few minutes. It probably takes three to four minutes but it seems an age. I need to find a resolution to this aspect. I do want to use home for storage as we have a dedicated caravan storage area with 16 amp electrical connection plus I like to work on the van at home.

 

[paws]

Congratulations on your new caravan.
Once you have had a chance to look in detail at the entrance/exit procedure, I'm sure you will be able to come up with a neat solution.

Its a very useful thing to be able to keep the van at home... makes those little jobs, so much easier than having to visit a storage site.

Happy caravanning...and perhaps the present weather is a good omen for you!
Regards
paws