yes thats what i mean i could take van to test they check it with lead and then go on site six months later and use a old lead that i had in garage would this make my pass cert invalid .as yuo say it would have to be a marked lead to make it clear it was the one tha was tested and that it is only this lead tha must be pluged in to the site that this asking for the p.i.r cert.Not just lead any part of test that may be replaced ie heater fridge ect.
Damian They realy are going over the top in your training. Have they not taught you about IP4x and the british standard test finger. or how to put limitations on your tests? Do you intend to code4 the 230v and 12v wiring which are loomed in close proximity to each other, which points the finger at the manufactures who blatently disregard this reg and issue a EIC for a caravan.
Going to bed now will continue which this discussion tommorow with the regs book out.Glenn
Going to bed now will continue which this discussion tommorow with the regs book out.Glenn
Damian
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Glenn, I know about IP4x and bsft and limitations, but the training given does not include any of that.
As for the isolation of LV and ELV , yes a Code 4 would be given, and I know I still cannot get my head around how manufacturers get away with issuing the EIC in the first place.
I know of one manufacturer whose loom supplier is having to totally redesign the looms to satisfy the regs.
As for the isolation of LV and ELV , yes a Code 4 would be given, and I know I still cannot get my head around how manufacturers get away with issuing the EIC in the first place.
I know of one manufacturer whose loom supplier is having to totally redesign the looms to satisfy the regs.
Dean, I love it. Noddy's Caravan Club which is exactly what they are as they have no authority whatsoever. It seems that they have caused a lot of good people to be ripped off by advising that P.I.R.s will be mandatory when thsi is not going to happen.
If they are such a great organisation why haven't they responded to either of the two emails I have sent them querying the P.I.R. Perhaps it is as Dean says, "Noddys Caravan Club".
However I do agree that new and second hand caravans should be sold with a P.I.R.
If they are such a great organisation why haven't they responded to either of the two emails I have sent them querying the P.I.R. Perhaps it is as Dean says, "Noddys Caravan Club".
However I do agree that new and second hand caravans should be sold with a P.I.R.
After over 200 posts on this topic many seem to be ignoring or forgetting some salient points.
Nobody, so far, has come up with any hard facts. Even those who have a vested interest in the testing going ahead haven't been able to state, with evidence that, for example, in the last 12 months or 5 years in the UK there have been X number of caravan fires, Y number of personal injuries or Z number of fatalities as a direct result of an electrical problem within the caravan that would have been prevented had the carvan had a PIR test.
I have said it previously and will say it again, it is not a matter of Possibility but Probability. If the probability is so infinately small then why bother to instigate a test if it is not for purely commercial reasons.
When someone shows me hard, irrefutable facts I may then take the matter more seriously. Until then I have nothing to base any judgement on.
Any organisation hoping to make a quick buck out of Joe Public can devise tests for just about anything, especially if that test actually proves that everything tested was, in fact, as it should be. And the more complicated a test appears to be the greater the revenue the test devises can screw out of us all, not just the public but also those who have 'been on the course' and are now 'testers'.
As has been said by others, the dismantling of anything and then rebuilding it will always, ulitimately, after a number of such cycles, result in its failure and the more times anyone, trained or not, interferes with equipment the greater the chance of human error and things not being reinstated correctly. I would seriously object to anyone dismantling my caravan as part of a test and I would ask the tester to sign that he or his company would be liable for any failure in the caravan at a later date as a result of 'dismantling'. I would also want to witness the test to see how components were removed and replaced.
JohnM
Nobody, so far, has come up with any hard facts. Even those who have a vested interest in the testing going ahead haven't been able to state, with evidence that, for example, in the last 12 months or 5 years in the UK there have been X number of caravan fires, Y number of personal injuries or Z number of fatalities as a direct result of an electrical problem within the caravan that would have been prevented had the carvan had a PIR test.
I have said it previously and will say it again, it is not a matter of Possibility but Probability. If the probability is so infinately small then why bother to instigate a test if it is not for purely commercial reasons.
When someone shows me hard, irrefutable facts I may then take the matter more seriously. Until then I have nothing to base any judgement on.
Any organisation hoping to make a quick buck out of Joe Public can devise tests for just about anything, especially if that test actually proves that everything tested was, in fact, as it should be. And the more complicated a test appears to be the greater the revenue the test devises can screw out of us all, not just the public but also those who have 'been on the course' and are now 'testers'.
As has been said by others, the dismantling of anything and then rebuilding it will always, ulitimately, after a number of such cycles, result in its failure and the more times anyone, trained or not, interferes with equipment the greater the chance of human error and things not being reinstated correctly. I would seriously object to anyone dismantling my caravan as part of a test and I would ask the tester to sign that he or his company would be liable for any failure in the caravan at a later date as a result of 'dismantling'. I would also want to witness the test to see how components were removed and replaced.
JohnM
Damian
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John, I have read your post and can only agree with you.
I have not been able to find out how many, if any, fires or deaths have happened in a touring caravan (there have been deaths in Statics but due to CO poisioning)or motorhome at any time in the past.
I have no idea who would have such information.
I also disagree with testing just for the sake of it, especially when it involves extra costs for owners, of which I am one as well.
I am also very uncomfortable about the requirement for me to start pulling items out of their housings, such as a fridge to disconnect the mains, to carry out testing.
There is no intention, as far as I know, to dismantle fixed furniture and the like, I am informed that just enough access to disconect electronic items is all that is needed, in many cases that just means access to underbed lockers to separate a plug.
At the end of the day, as it stands at the moment, an owner does not HAVE to agree to the test, it is his or her choice, but I have a feeling that once all parks have been made aware of the situation, and received their training, that it will become a standard question when booking "Have you got a current PIR for your van/motorhome"
Owners of vans 3 years and less in age will already have the original certificate so wil not be affected.
On a personal note, I do not know where I am supposed to find the time to carry out these tests and inspections without causing attendance delays to users with much more pressing problems when they arrive on sites and find something does not work, and it is affecting their holiday or use of the van.
I have not been able to find out how many, if any, fires or deaths have happened in a touring caravan (there have been deaths in Statics but due to CO poisioning)or motorhome at any time in the past.
I have no idea who would have such information.
I also disagree with testing just for the sake of it, especially when it involves extra costs for owners, of which I am one as well.
I am also very uncomfortable about the requirement for me to start pulling items out of their housings, such as a fridge to disconnect the mains, to carry out testing.
There is no intention, as far as I know, to dismantle fixed furniture and the like, I am informed that just enough access to disconect electronic items is all that is needed, in many cases that just means access to underbed lockers to separate a plug.
At the end of the day, as it stands at the moment, an owner does not HAVE to agree to the test, it is his or her choice, but I have a feeling that once all parks have been made aware of the situation, and received their training, that it will become a standard question when booking "Have you got a current PIR for your van/motorhome"
Owners of vans 3 years and less in age will already have the original certificate so wil not be affected.
On a personal note, I do not know where I am supposed to find the time to carry out these tests and inspections without causing attendance delays to users with much more pressing problems when they arrive on sites and find something does not work, and it is affecting their holiday or use of the van.
Damien, I think your last paragraph says it all. No site owner is going to bother with the hassle of checking the age of the caravan and then asking to see the P.I.R.
For start many caravanners will have no idea what the site onr is asking to check as not every caravanner is a club member or reads caravan forums.
For start many caravanners will have no idea what the site onr is asking to check as not every caravanner is a club member or reads caravan forums.
Perhaps if enough vanners refuse to have the test site owners will have to disregard the certificates or go bust. With any luck this stupid idea will be consigned to the bin where it belongs.
Damaian, you said "but I have a feeling that once all parks have been made aware of the situation, and received their training, that it will become a standard question when booking "Have you got a current PIR for your van/motorhome".
Are you saying that every site operator in the UK is going to have compulsory training of some description? What is in it for them and how much would it costand who ismaking it compulsory?
Personally I think it will lead to a lot of sites offering pitches at a reduced rate if no electric is wanted which in my opinion a good thing.
Are you saying that every site operator in the UK is going to have compulsory training of some description? What is in it for them and how much would it costand who ismaking it compulsory?
Personally I think it will lead to a lot of sites offering pitches at a reduced rate if no electric is wanted which in my opinion a good thing.
That may be none then.
The NCC web site says : "The NCC is the trade association for the UK caravan industry, encompassing touring caravans, motorhomes, caravan holiday homes and park homes".
It has, it appears, from looking at their website that they have nothing to do with touring parks.
The NCC web site says : "The NCC is the trade association for the UK caravan industry, encompassing touring caravans, motorhomes, caravan holiday homes and park homes".
It has, it appears, from looking at their website that they have nothing to do with touring parks.
There website also says " there are 500,000 touring caravans in use in the UK" If they were all required to be tested every year at 4 hours labour say
ian i did not make the state ment noddy caravan club just for a joke like moderator thinks .I used it to point out that the fact that the ncc are not the power that some people think they are to new members and some less informed the ncc come across as the dvla .
as far as I am aware, all NCC registered sites have to comply.
If that is the case, I can see lots of sites dropping out of the NCC if they start to loose custom to sites that do not operate this ludicrous scheme.
I would have soon dropped out of any organisation that was supposed to have supported my business, but only served to cost me the goodwill that had been built up by years of good practice and customer relations.
Steve W
If that is the case, I can see lots of sites dropping out of the NCC if they start to loose custom to sites that do not operate this ludicrous scheme.
I would have soon dropped out of any organisation that was supposed to have supported my business, but only served to cost me the goodwill that had been built up by years of good practice and customer relations.
Steve W
hi all
some 100 posts ago I posed a rather flippant post regarding the validity of the PIR test as some sort of thin edge of the wedge sighting other seemingly normal activities that could if taken to the extreem require the assistance of the professional (at a fee)to complete while caravanning like changing a gas bottle or connecting the hook up cable reading the posts since then lead me to believe that it was not so flippant afterall.
caravanning is changing all the time and has been for many years but past and more recent legistlation makes it more likely that it will be harder and more costly to use the van in future at some point it will be out of the reach of the average caravan owner ie, those with vans over 6 years old and is a bridge too far IMO.
at present while it is advisable to have your van serviced every year it is not compulsory neither is it have insuarance or the gas and electric appliances done. many many vans in regular use have probably never been profesionaly checked over for many years but continue to give faultless service to their owners provided vans comply with the requirements of the road traffic act that should be good enough.
fair enough a older van may be considered as more of a risk than a new one but can be said of anything a 10 yearold astra will not be as good as a new audi that does not mean all 10yearold astras are going to blowup or set fire tomorrow does it?.
the NCC should be putting their own house in order first making sure that new vans are made to last and fit for purpose the assumption that a PIR will be required after 3 years of use is an admission that something is wrong with the industry and if they cannot get to grips with that what right do they have dictate what happens after 3 years when all the warranties have run out in order to rake in a more cash.
does anybody actually believe that someone with a 10year old van will pay for a PIR and servicing and mot as well as insurance to use a van for 3 weeks a year no chance.
who do these people think they are, if the SMMT decided to introduce compulsory electrical and fuel tests after a car was 3 years old besides the normal MOT that had to be shown to the filling station on every visit to the pumps never mind charging
some 100 posts ago I posed a rather flippant post regarding the validity of the PIR test as some sort of thin edge of the wedge sighting other seemingly normal activities that could if taken to the extreem require the assistance of the professional (at a fee)to complete while caravanning like changing a gas bottle or connecting the hook up cable reading the posts since then lead me to believe that it was not so flippant afterall.
caravanning is changing all the time and has been for many years but past and more recent legistlation makes it more likely that it will be harder and more costly to use the van in future at some point it will be out of the reach of the average caravan owner ie, those with vans over 6 years old and is a bridge too far IMO.
at present while it is advisable to have your van serviced every year it is not compulsory neither is it have insuarance or the gas and electric appliances done. many many vans in regular use have probably never been profesionaly checked over for many years but continue to give faultless service to their owners provided vans comply with the requirements of the road traffic act that should be good enough.
fair enough a older van may be considered as more of a risk than a new one but can be said of anything a 10 yearold astra will not be as good as a new audi that does not mean all 10yearold astras are going to blowup or set fire tomorrow does it?.
the NCC should be putting their own house in order first making sure that new vans are made to last and fit for purpose the assumption that a PIR will be required after 3 years of use is an admission that something is wrong with the industry and if they cannot get to grips with that what right do they have dictate what happens after 3 years when all the warranties have run out in order to rake in a more cash.
does anybody actually believe that someone with a 10year old van will pay for a PIR and servicing and mot as well as insurance to use a van for 3 weeks a year no chance.
who do these people think they are, if the SMMT decided to introduce compulsory electrical and fuel tests after a car was 3 years old besides the normal MOT that had to be shown to the filling station on every visit to the pumps never mind charging
I think l saw earlier a few posts ago that the CC had no intensions of asking for PIR inspection report on their sites, l have been on their Web and can't find any info about PIR reports, or am looking in the in the wrong place for the info.
NigelH
NigelH
It appears, from looking at their website that they have nothing to do with touring parks. Sites are not members of their organisation.
This also raises the question of whether you are competent enough to change your gas bottle over when it runs out or will you have to call a certified and qualified person to do this? In a sense you are interfering with the gas supply to the caravan.
It all boils down to competence whether it be gas or electric.ii would think that most caravanners are competent enough to check their wiring for any abnormalities etc without actually handling or interfering with them.
It all boils down to competence whether it be gas or electric.ii would think that most caravanners are competent enough to check their wiring for any abnormalities etc without actually handling or interfering with them.
Damian
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Quote "This also raises the question of whether you are competent enough to change your gas bottle over when it runs out or will you have to call a certified and qualified person to do this? "
No it does not, the changing of the cylinder is exempt from the gas regulations.
The changing of the pigtail or supply hose is not exempt however.
No it does not, the changing of the cylinder is exempt from the gas regulations.
The changing of the pigtail or supply hose is not exempt however.
I have a 10 year old Pageant which is absolutely immaculate and fully serviced and maintained. I am already somewhat upset due to the difficulty of booking touring trips through the week and into the weekend at CC sites due to other selfish members who do block bookings. If we are now going to have to deal with PIR certificates and MOT type tests on our vans I think that many older caravanners like my wife and I will say the time has come to stop and retire from the hobby. What will then happen to the market in used vans?
It seems to me that all these initiatives brought in on an excuse of the dreaded "Health & Safety" is just a way of making even more money out of what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It seems to me that all these initiatives brought in on an excuse of the dreaded "Health & Safety" is just a way of making even more money out of what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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