Used EVs

[Dustydog]

The EV market is in some turmoil at the moment. Tesla droppin $9000 of list price of the model 3 sent shockwaves through the market, it knocked thousands off the value of cars bought just before the price reduction, and that gave dealers a cold shower and has begun to depress the value of other brands also.

Coupled to it is the insurance industries reaction to EV's and the scare stories about battery instability. An interesting pod cast on Fully Charged had a fire safety expert from Australia who put a rather different colour to the inflated reports. Apparently the Australian fire departments are queing up to try to obtain EV's that are fire damaged caused by a battery fire for training purposes. However there are so few that have been caused by battery failure, there is a dearth of them There are far more where the cause of a fire was not the battery but something external to it.

I read recently that a lot of US Insurers had refused to insure Teslas . Surprise surprise Elon Musk has set up his own Insurance Company to cover Teslas. Tesla is not alone. JLR have been forced to set up. an Insurer to cover their cars. A lot of UK Insurers won’t touch JLR stuff because of the repair costs

 

[otherclive]

I read recently that a lot of US Insurers had refused to insure Teslas . Surprise surprise Elon Musk has set up his own Insurance Company to cover Teslas. Tesla is not alone. JLR have been forced to set up. an Insurer to cover their cars. A lot of UK Insurers won’t touch JLR stuff because of the repair costs

I thought the JLR issue was because their security wasn’t that good that they were very high on the list of stolen vehicles. But JLR have upgraded the security performance and are now claiming it’s the best in the business. But they got some bad press when some owners could not get cover via JLR scheme but of course the reasons were not disclosed.

 

[trevormonty]

In most situations the rare EV fire isn't big deal. Ship fires where they are caused by EV or feed by EV after it starts elsewhere is major concern. We've seen car transport ships sunk or totalled by fires their ICE designed fire control systems couldn't contain. It's a matter of time before ferry carrying 100s of passengers has car deck fire involving EV that catches fire.

For some cost of replacement battery packs is issue. In NZ we've been importing used Leafs from Japan for years. The value of car decreases as range does but there is still big market for them as 2nd car for use in city.
My son's student mate has >10yr 70km range Leaf which costs him next to nothing to run. For occasional 100km trip to see family he just has to add a stop at charging station.

 

[Dustydog]

I thought the JLR issue was because their security wasn’t that good that they were very high on the list of stolen vehicles. But JLR have upgraded the security performance and are now claiming it’s the best in the business. But they got some bad press when some owners could not get cover via JLR scheme but of course the reasons were not disclosed.

That’s correct. But if you dig deeper it wasn’t just the high theft costs in a few major cities but the actual repair costs of body damage and time off road (sic).

 

[ProfJohnL]

In most situations the rare EV fire isn't big deal. Ship fires where they are caused by EV or feed by EV after it starts elsewhere is major concern. We've seen car transport ships sunk or totalled by fires their ICE designed fire control systems couldn't contain. It's a matter of time before ferry carrying 100s of passengers has car deck fire involving EV that catches fire.

If a fire starts elsewhere on a ship and can't be stopped or contained and it then causes an EV to go on fire, that's not the fault of the EV. Logically if the fire had not started the EV (or any other car for that matter) would not have caught fire.

There have been too many instances where the press have deliberately looked to see if they can pin it onto EV's and simply if an EV was nearby they will highlight the fact and by doing so infer it was involved with the cause of the problem.

 

[Buckman]

I am not an EV fan but as I pointed out in another post, EVs suffer less from fires than ICE vehicles. Also maybe the fire department in Aus could not get enough EVs to fire test as there are not many EVs around in Oz?

 

[otherclive]

News reports state that Georgian security have discovered 14kg of explosive hidden in a repurposed EV battery where part of the cars battery had been modified to carry the explosive.

 

[Buckman]

News reports state that Georgian security have discovered 14kg of explosive hidden in a repurposed EV battery where part of the cars battery had been modified to carry the explosive.

Then the vehicle probably was not an EV, but a hybrid?

 

[otherclive]

Then the vehicle probably was not an EV, but a hybrid?

Reuters have a different take on it and say a consignment of car batteries. So that’s probably more accurate.

 

[Buckman]

Reuters have a different take on it and say a consignment of car batteries. So that’s probably more accurate.

Having checked the story varies depending on who is reporting. One mentioned a consignment and another two car batteries modified to hold 14kg explosives.

 

[Dustydog]

According to Honeywell Safety and Productivity Solutions, 239 fires recorded in the UK from July 2022 to June 2023 were linked to EVs.

ICE related fires were 20 times greater.
Phev fell somewhere between the two.
A lot of ICE fires were malicious, destroying scenes of crime, joy riders etc. Obviously age comes into it and poor servicing.

Extinguishing an EV fire is said to be extremely difficult because of Thermal Runaway.

 

[trevormonty]

If a fire starts elsewhere on a ship and can't be stopped or contained and it then causes an EV to go on fire, that's not the fault of the EV.

Issue isn't whether EV starts fire but that once on fire it makes it very hard to contain.

 

[ricky_s]

I thought motorway services were circa 70 p / kwh.
Do you honestly find the EV is not as cheap to run as alleged by the anti ICE group?

Agreed. Let’s see if Ricky explains more. The focus is the cost of charging “on the road”

As I mentioned, it only makes sense to have one if you can charge at home at a cheap rate.

Of course, if you have a company car then it does make a lot of sense to go down the EV route for benefit in kind tax benefits but possibly a big inconvenience if doing high mileage.

My wife has a company Volvo C40 and commutes 80 miles a day twice a week. Using her EV costs a couple of pounds but when she used my Volvo V90 petrol the trip used two gallons so a lot more expensive.

 

[Buckman]

On a kw you only pay 5% VAT, but on fuel you pay duty and then VAT which is one of the reasons why fuel is so expensive. The government needs that money to fund other areas like the NHS.

Take away that income from motorists is a loss of billions of pounds and it will need to be replaced by something else which could generate the lost amount and to do that could be through increased VAT, higher PAYE or maybe owners of EVs will need to pay VED and VAT on kw is increased from 55 to 20% all in the name of going green before we are ready.

 

[otherclive]

As I mentioned, it only makes sense to have one if you can charge at home at a cheap rate.

Of course, if you have a company car then it does make a lot of sense to go down the EV route for benefit in kind tax benefits but possibly a big inconvenience if doing high mileage.

My wife has a company Volvo C40 and commutes 80 miles a day twice a week. Using her EV costs a couple of pounds but when she used my Volvo V90 petrol the trip used two gallons so a lot more expensive.

My grandson hasn’t got a domestic charger as it’s not been transferred from his mums home to his new house and his mum has now put an embargo on him using it. So he charges his cars at work where it’s a cheap charge rate.

 

[ProfJohnL]

On a kw you only pay 5% VAT, but on fuel you pay duty and then VAT which is one of the reasons why fuel is so expensive. The government needs that money to fund other areas like the NHS.

Take away that income from motorists is a loss of billions of pounds and it will need to be replaced by something else which could generate the lost amount and to do that could be through increased VAT, higher PAYE or maybe owners of EVs will need to pay VED and VAT on kw is increased from 55 to 20% all in the name of going green before we are ready.

Make hay whilst the sun shines, and as long as there are tax benefits to running an EV then so be it. How many of us jumped on the diesel 'train' when it was cheaper?

But I'm under no illusion that taxing (whether on fuel, VED or miles driven) is presently advantageous to EV users. But that is not the only reason many people have chosen to go EV. I am certaintaxing will change as the number of EV's on the roads increases.

Many users have considered other important factors, such as the inherent inefficiencies of ICE vehicles and their resultant waste products they continually release. (70 to 80% of the energy in petrol is released as waste heat) Pollution rises every time the engine is run.

The reserves of fossil fuel are depleted never to be replaced with every gallon you use.

EV's are not perfect but they use less energy and produce less pollution in a cradle to grave analysis.

There are presently obstacles to the uptake of EV's for some people, There are too few EV's with decent towing capabilities, and those that can tow still face difficulties with doing longer distances, with inadequate recharging facilities across the country.

This is still early days for EV's, things are continually improving but it will take time for both the infrastructure and the vehicle capabilities to settle out and become as easier. It may never be as easy as it presently is for ICE vehicles.

 

[Dustydog]

Scientists exploring Southern California's Salton Sea, the state's largest lake, have unearthed a staggering lithium reservoir worth an estimated $540 billion. The 'white gold' discovery comes as a game-changer, positioning the United States as a potential leader in lithium production.18 Dec 2023
But will this be clean compared to the Lithium and Cobalt Lakes in Chile?
I can’t see the USA giving up on fossil fuels.

 

[Buckman]

Fossil fuel reserves are estimated to be able last hundreds of years, but by that time we would have switched to something cheaper and more environmentally friendly and it probably will not be EVs in their current form i.e. using lithium batteries.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There may well be a lot of fossil fuel reserves in the ground, but we have been using up the material that is relatively easy to get to, so what is lef,t becomes progressively more difficult to and therefore more expensive to extract, and of course every gallon burnt cannot be replaced and it's still adding to the pollution problems and dropping the reserves.

I agree the present Lithium based electrical storage may not be the longest term solution for transport. However the batteries are lasting far longer than the anti EV brigade predicted, and even at end of life the rare materials can be reclaimed and reused.

There are many projects being pursued all over the world to find alternative energy storage systems. Some will continue to use Lithium but in smaller quantities to achieve the same or better energy storage capacities.

Its taken 120 years for the ICE industry to develop engines to where we are to day, The new wave of EV's have only been around in any real quantity for 10 years. It's too early to finally judge EV's on the same basis as we see ICE. There's a lot of potential (no pun intended) to revealed.

It does need government to legislate to open up the charging opportunities. across the country.

 

[Dustydog]

It does need government to legislate to open up the charging opportunities. across the country.
I wonder what you have in mind? Eg making it mandatory that service stations , Supermarkets, hotels and pubs provide them at a HMG subsidised cost? It will be interesting to see the what the Parties say in the run up to the next election

 

[otherclive]

It does need government to legislate to open up the charging opportunities. across the country.
I wonder what you have in mind? Eg making it mandatory that service stations , Supermarkets, hotels and pubs provide them at a HMG subsidised cost? It will be interesting to see the what the Parties say in the run up to the next election

I would strongly object to HMG subsidised cost, as in reality it’s the taxpayers who are actually paying such a subsidy. Why should they pay when the majority are probably years away from owning an electric car. Where government can step in is to ensure planning rules and local authorities support the wider installation of charging points. If a lack of charging points is deemed a restraint on electric vehicle sales then business and industry should step forward and take the reins.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It does need government to legislate to open up the charging opportunities. across the country.
I wonder what you have in mind? Eg making it mandatory that service stations , Supermarkets, hotels and pubs provide them at a HMG subsidised cost? It will be interesting to see the what the Parties say in the run up to the next election

My reference to government, and opportunities, was two pronged firstly to make the more accessible without needing a membership card, and payment by credit ore debit card, rather than apps. and secondly to simplify the planning processes so that more places can actually provide them.. I was not advocating subsidies.

 

[Buckman]

There may well be a lot of fossil fuel reserves in the ground, but we have been using up the material that is relatively easy to get to, so what is lef,t becomes progressively more difficult to and therefore more expensive to extract, and of course every gallon burnt cannot be replaced and it's still adding to the pollution problems and dropping the reserves.

The above would apply also apply to current batteries for current EVs s as those resources may run sooner if we continue down that path whereas we have hundreds of years of reserve oil. I wonder which is going to run out first?

I still think that hydrogen is a cleaner way forward as it is one of the most abundant gases in the universe, but we need to find a way to extract it economically. However having said that fracking was a very expensive method to extract oil, but now apparently due to inflation etc it is no longer an expensive way to extract oil?

 

[Tobes]

My reference to government, and opportunities, was two pronged firstly to make the more accessible without needing a membership card, and payment by credit ore debit card, rather than apps. and secondly to simplify the planning processes so that more places can actually provide them.. I was not advocating subsidies.

I think the other area that the government can assist in is closing the gap between public and private charging costs. Right now home charging is only 5% VAT and public is 20%. That disparity is not helpful for those who cant have a home charger for whatever reason.

 

[Tobes]

The above would apply also apply to current batteries for current EVs s as those resources may run sooner if we continue down that path whereas we have hundreds of years of reserve oil. I wonder which is going to run out first?

I still think that hydrogen is a cleaner way forward as it is one of the most abundant gases in the universe, but we need to find a way to extract it economically. However having said that fracking was a very expensive method to extract oil, but now apparently due to inflation etc it is no longer an expensive way to extract oil?

There is of course a difference between extraction of oil as a fuel and extraction of minerals as a component; that of re-use. Once a battery had degraded beyond usable capacity in a car, it may be redeployed in static uses where energy density is not so critical. And then it can be recycled back to its raw material, to be rebuilt into a new battery with almost no loss of raw material. And that process can be repeated infinity. There is a great short video (about 7 mins) that describes this process in a plant in the US here. These recycling capabilities are already present in the UK, but are waiting for a good supply of EV batteries to process.