Used EVs

[otherclive]

The above would apply also apply to current batteries for current EVs s as those resources may run sooner if we continue down that path whereas we have hundreds of years of reserve oil. I wonder which is going to run out first?

I still think that hydrogen is a cleaner way forward as it is one of the most abundant gases in the universe, but we need to find a way to extract it economically. However having said that fracking was a very expensive method to extract oil, but now apparently due to inflation etc it is no longer an expensive way to extract oil?

Toyota are actively developing solid state batteries and aim to introduce them into models beyond 2027. Do they contain lithium?

 

[Buckman]

I think the other area that the government can assist in is closing the gap between public and private charging costs. Right now home charging is only 5% VAT and public is 20%. That disparity is not helpful for those who cant have a home charger for whatever reason.

I agree but then it should also be applied to the owners of ICE vehicles i.e. subsidised fuel costs. Why should the owners of EVs be any different to owners of ICE vehicles as surely that is blatant discrimination?

 

[Tobes]

I agree but then it should also be applied to the owners of ICE vehicles i.e. subsidised fuel costs. Why should the owners of EVs be any different to owners of ICE vehicles as surely that is blatant discrimination?

Hmm. Not sure I agree. We are talking about different fuel types. LPG and LNG have had substantially different duty to petrol and diesel for years to encourage a "greener" fuel source. There is difference even between those two. Consumers have the choice to buy or use a vehicle with an appropriate fuel system to reduce their cost base.
The disparity change (20% to 5%) is to address an issue that is beyond the control of a consumer (i.e. lack of driveway), removing a barrier for an uptake of the new technology that is both more efficient and less polluting.

 

[RogerL]

I think the other area that the government can assist in is closing the gap between public and private charging costs. Right now home charging is only 5% VAT and public is 20%. That disparity is not helpful for those who cant have a home charger for whatever reason.

HM Government gets large amounts of taxation revenue from IC vehicles - as the % of EV : IC vehicles increases that revenue will drop significantly at a time when politicians are trying to reduce taxation - so reducing the VAT on public chargers is probably a non-starter.

 

[Tobes]

HM Government gets large amounts of taxation revenue from IC vehicles - as the % of EV : IC vehicles increases that revenue will drop significantly at a time when politicians are trying to reduce taxation - so reducing the VAT on public chargers is probably a non-starter.

I agree, and I accept that the government need to raise revenue too. But they also need to address disparity in cost for adoption. I think it is an accepted truth that early adoption of EV was easier for those with more disposable income - they are expensive items new. But that is changing with the used market. If the government wants to drive adoption (that is perhaps a false assumption based on some recent decisions), it needs to make them affordable for all. Lower used prices are making the access to a vehicle accessible, but charging needs addressing. If my daughter could not charge from home 80% of the time rather than not at all - she would not have picked an EV.

 

[RogerL]

I agree, and I accept that the government need to raise revenue too. But they also need to address disparity in cost for adoption. I think it is an accepted truth that early adoption of EV was easier for those with more disposable income - they are expensive items new. But that is changing with the used market. If the government wants to drive adoption (that is perhaps a false assumption based on some recent decisions), it needs to make them affordable for all. Lower used prices are making the access to a vehicle accessible, but charging needs addressing. If my daughter could not charge from home 80% of the time rather than not at all - she would not have picked an EV.

Be careful what you wish for - they could equalize the VAT rate by increasing domestic energy to 20% !!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

The above would apply also apply to current batteries for current EVs s as those resources may run sooner if we continue down that path whereas we have hundreds of years of reserve oil. I wonder which is going to run out first?

I still think that hydrogen is a cleaner way forward as it is one of the most abundant gases in the universe, but we need to find a way to extract it economically. However having said that fracking was a very expensive method to extract oil, but now apparently due to inflation etc it is no longer an expensive way to extract oil?

As you allude, the comparatively rare or contentious materials used to make present day batteries such as Lithium and Colbalt there is a lot of work being done to reduce or even eliminate them from future battery production. Consequently if there is a rarity concern what we have will go further or even become unnecessary. But the other factor is that unlike fossil fuel which has to be burnt and destroyed so can only be used once, battery materials can be almost be fully reclaimed and reused, so once mined its not lost.

Incidentally Colbalt is widely used by the petrol refinery industry, so any concerns about how its produced for batteries should also be raised in connection with the petrochemical industry.

Hydrogen is already widely produced, but its mainly sourced from oil. It is an energy intensive process which uses more energy than is stored in the resulting hydrogen. It may be a fuel source that suits some situations, but with its very small molecular size its is highly searching and finds leak paths that larger molecules simply cannot get through. Storing, transportation and redistributing hydrogen is far more complex than for hydrocarbon fuels, The vast majority of hydrogen produced is converted into ammonia which is used in agricultural fertilizer.

Until a simpler, cheaper and more energy efficient process is found to produce Hydrogen, it won't become mainstream fuel for transport.

 

[Buckman]

Here is an interesting clip on the various modes used to propel a motor vehicle. See

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think the Harrys garage video gives a quite well balanced view of the situation in the UK. However , the reference to Bjorn Nylands videos, and results should be taken with some care. Firstly the sample of vehicles are small and that may not be a fair representation of all cars of those makes and models.

Secondly he is based in Norway, and as it was alluded to in Harry's video, the batteries do not do so well in temperature extremes, so again his results may be a fair representation of vehicles in Norway, but the figure are probably better in the UK climate.

Harry's views about the UK public charging network are I think justified. Public charging can cost 10 times what you might pay on a cheap rate scheme. That is hard to justify, and is one of the issues I would like to see the UK government tackle, along with payment methods rather than Apps.

I have always said that electrification of vehicles is only part of the climate change issue, but even though it might only be 7% of global emissions, because we can do it we should still do it, as every little bit helps.

Unless another strategy comes forward that can be implemented to reduce overall emissions, going to EV's is still the most practical present solution. And as it has already gained considerable traction its unlikely to be derailed any time soon.

The points I have made about the production of Hydrogen as a fuel still stand, and in almost similar proportions the same cost argument presently arises with synthetic fuels.

Insurance costs are too high, and as Harry pointed out, its the insurance industry that does not fully understand the nature of the beast, and it has be skewed becasue of the very high costs of the luxury vehicles that have been so relatively cost effective for companies and fleets to buy.

The whole EV experience is still in its infancy, it needs time to evolve and mature and be better understood by both the trade and the public .

 

[Buckman]

They tried EV sin 1920's and it did not work out well then and battery development stagnated at that point for the next 70 years with not much progress being made. as a better alternative was found Perhaps the same with happen with the current generation of EVs?

 

[Dustydog]

Harry’s presentation highlighted a number of factors that have perhaps been glossed over by HMG and car manufacturers.
I wonder how many years it will take before the EV used market becomes an affordable entity for most U.K. car drivers?
Maybe 2035 is still too optimistic.
Harry’s usage requirement is very similar to us caravanners. I can understand why he has chosen the diesel Landy.
The flip side might be those who use the car as a school bus / shopping trolley never venturing too far afield .. I can see the EV fitting the bill.
I assume his 7% global emissions is correctly stated.Encouraging. Euro 7 will no doubt reduce the % more.
Is it true what he said about fast chargers reducing overall battery life? That is a concern for anyone regularly doing high mileage daily?

 

[otherclive]

They tried EV sin 1920's and it did not work out well then and battery development stagnated at that point for the next 70 years with not much progress being made. as a better alternative was found Perhaps the same with happen with the current generation of EVs?

Given that current EVs are only now coming on stream I think that EV motoring will develop better battery technolgy and ancillary kit for greater range, charging networks will expand and charging speeds will increase. So in reality the problems that some perceive will be addressed and EV motoring will become the norm. WRT alternatives I recognise that hydrogen is being progressed by companies like JCB and Toyota and others but just looking at what would be required for H2 motoring the product and infrastructure is years away so it’s likely to fulfill niche roles for a long time yet. Having been driven in my grandsons Tesla model Y AWD it is quite a car as far as ride and performance go, but personally I really don’t like the cabin with so much touch screen controls. But there are ICE cars that have gone down that route too viz VW, Volvo, Stellantis models etc.

 

[Dustydog]

I sense you have an antipathy to Harry’s video Clive? 😉

 

[Sam Vimes]

As I've mentioned previously my daughter in NZ has an old Nissan - Leaf 2012 I think. This last week they've just had the battery changed and also the dash updated so that it no longer nags them in Japanese. The range has now gone from less than 60Km to over 160Km and they reckon the car will be good for another 6 or 7 years.

On a side note I also mentioned that EVs in NZ are now subject to a Road User Charge (RUC) - pay per kilometer. This penalises Hybrid users who will now pay fuel duty at the pump plus the RUC. Since some of the hybrids batteries are very small and the range is very low the forums are now discussing ways of removing the batteries to avoid the RUC.

Shades of things to come in the UK

 

[otherclive]

I sense you have an antipathy to Harry’s video Clive? 😉

No antipathy as I’ve not watched it. Whats in it that may irritate me?

 

[Buckman]

Is it true what he said about fast chargers reducing overall battery life? That is a concern for anyone regularly doing high mileage daily?

I think that has been known for some time and probably applies to all batteries. Not sure but I think that if you leave an EV standing i.e. 4 weeks, the battery loses some of its charge?

 

[Dustydog]

The

No antipathy as I’ve not watched it. Whats in it that may irritate me?

Don't know about irritate? Can’t answer that. I thought you had viewed it? Harry has gone for a diesel not EV. He gave an excellent balanced view and highlighted a number of factors that influenced his choice. All academic I guess as you haven’t seen it.

 

[otherclive]

The

Don't know about irritate? Can’t answer that. I thought you had viewed it? Harry has gone for a diesel not EV. He gave an excellent balanced view and highlighted a number of factors that influenced his choice. All academic I guess as you haven’t seen it.

I can understand someone electing to go for a diesel car I had enjoyed my various donks . My daughter is wrestling with what to do when her nhs lease car a Corolla self charging hybrid is returned. . The lease charges are not that low but it gives her some certainty and a reliable car. But she’s also looking at not taking on another lease and buying pre owned a diesel car, something such as bmw three series, Audi A4. But it’s a while away yet and I suspect the market will change over this next year.

 

[Tobes]

I think that has been known for some time and probably applies to all batteries. Not sure but I think that if you leave an EV standing i.e. 4 weeks, the battery loses some of its charge?

EVs dont tend to loose charge, but there can certainly be "phantom drain" from a an EV. Ie. some system in the car that might sip (or gulp) power that the owner has inadvertently left on. Our two EVs sat on the drive from about Jan 1st to Jan 16th without loosing a single percent.

Fast (properly called Rapid or ultra-rapid) charging can damage a battery if un-managed. Fortunately almost all modern EV's are properly managed with active intelligent battery cooling systems that actively cool (or heat) the battery to ensure it is at it's optimum temperature for both health and charging speed.

Slower home or destination charging (properly called fast) is very benign for a managed EV battery.

Is it true what he said about fast chargers reducing overall battery life? That is a concern for anyone regularly doing high mileage daily?

Depends on your circumstances and what you call high mileage. It would be quite possible to charge and use the battery in my EVs from empty to full over night giving you 200 miles of driving (or more) every day. 1000 miles a week excluding weekends, 42,000 miles in a working year. Without ever using a rapid charger. And would really not cause any damage to the battery.

 

[ProfJohnL]

EVs dont tend to loose charge, but there can certainly be "phantom drain" from a an EV. Ie. some system in the car that might sip (or gulp) power that the owner has inadvertently left on. Our two EVs sat on the drive from about Jan 1st to Jan 16th without loosing a single percent.

Whilst I can't confirm the causes of power loss when not being used, there are several reports that do suggest EV's can lose some HV power when left. So it's a point that could do with further evidence being gathered.

However if a battery has been charged whilst warm - which optimised charge retention, but then its left to stand and the system cools down to winter temperatures, the available charge is sometimes found to be reduced.

 

[Buckman]

The battery on most ICE vehicles will drain due to phantom drains for alarm system. Perhaps as a battery gets older this drain becomes more significant? Ask me how I know.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Fast (properly called Rapid or ultra-rapid) charging can damage a battery if un-managed. Fortunately almost all modern EV's are properly managed with active intelligent battery cooling systems that actively cool (or heat) the battery to ensure it is at it's optimum temperature for both health and charging speed.

Interesting article here about a Catch 22 situation with trying to condition a battery for charging, especially in low temperatures, which uses the already low battery to condition itself.

Tesla owners discover the cold, hard truth about EVs

Not all batteries like subzero temperatures

www.theregister.com

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think its only fair to point out that some diesel fuels will also begin to "Wax" at around -10C, so EV's are not the only things to have trouble at low temperatures.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I think its only fair to point out that some diesel fuels will also begin to "Wax" at around -10C, so EV's are not the only things to have trouble at low temperatures.

Quite true but then you don't have to queue up at a charging point to 'fill up'. A few minutes for diesel where as some of these folks seem to be waiting hours.

When I lived in Canada we had block heaters which we had to use in the winter. Also the tyres developed a flat spot over night and in the morning it was like driving on the railway lines for the first few kilometers.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I remember seeing all the vehicles in northern BC with the short flying lead poking out of the radiator grill, and all the powerpoints outside shops etc.... I also remember seeing truckers on lorry parks poking flaming bundles of rags underneath side fuel tanks.... it was -30C