Used EVs

[Buckman]

I think its only fair to point out that some diesel fuels will also begin to "Wax" at around -10C, so EV's are not the only things to have trouble at low temperatures.

Never had the issue with any of our diesels even when it has been -5C or less. Perhaps a lot depends on the quality of diesel used? I do not know. I do know that there is an issue using recycled fish shop oil in older diesels. In summer no problem, in winter big problem. LOL!

 

[RogerL]

I think its only fair to point out that some diesel fuels will also begin to "Wax" at around -10C, so EV's are not the only things to have trouble at low temperatures.

"Waxing" in diesel fuel isn't generally a problem in Europe where winter diesel of a level appropriate to the country's climate is mandatory - it can be a problem in North America where they tend to rely on owners using an additive themselves.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Actually I should have said in my previous post that the block heaters where to thin the engine oil out to make it easier to turn the engine over. Petrol or diesel.

 

[otherclive]

Diesels for private use aren’t very widespread in Canada and USA. When I lived in Canada the Jeep (petrol) could use a block heater, and periodically I would dose the tank with an additive that had an affinity for water in the tank and then was burned along with the petrol.

Most modern diesels have an integral heater in the fuel system and as said above the fuel specification is changed for colder climates, otherwise Germany and northwards would grind to a halt in winter.

 

[Dustydog]

40 years ago Fil bought a new VHS Recorder £440. £1860 in today’s money.
Towards the end of VHS you could pick up a fully loaded unit for peanuts!
Will this be the case for an EV?
Will it take 40 years to become affordable?
Will they all be made in PRC?

 

[Buckman]

40 years ago Fil bought a new VHS Recorder £440. £1860 in today’s money.
Towards the end of VHS you could pick up a fully loaded unit for peanuts!
Will this be the case for an EV?
Will it take 40 years to become affordable?
Will they all be made in PRC?

The Betamax and Phillips VCR cost even more! Several years ago I exported a Betamax to Canada. They needed it for some videos that needed transferring to VHS or disc. Buyer paid all costs.

 

[RogerL]

40 years ago Fil bought a new VHS Recorder £440. £1860 in today’s money.
Towards the end of VHS you could pick up a fully loaded unit for peanuts!
Will this be the case for an EV?
Will it take 40 years to become affordable?
Will they all be made in PRC?

The timescale will be a lot less - the rate of progress increases all the time

 

[otherclive]

40 years ago Fil bought a new VHS Recorder £440. £1860 in today’s money.
Towards the end of VHS you could pick up a fully loaded unit for peanuts!
Will this be the case for an EV?
Will it take 40 years to become affordable?
Will they all be made in PRC?

There are reports in the news that the EU and UK(separately) may move to prevent cheaper Chinese brands flooding the market and impacting the domestic makes. But it’s totally different to when Japanese motorcycles annihilated our industry as so much of European cars relies on Chinese parts and especially batteries. Plus European (inc UK) makers sell cars in China, some of which are made there. So there isn’t a simple answer to protectionism.

 

[Tobes]

Whilst I can't confirm the causes of power loss when not being used, there are several reports that do suggest EV's can lose some HV power when left. So it's a point that could do with further evidence being gathered.

However if a battery has been charged whilst warm - which optimised charge retention, but then its left to stand and the system cools down to winter temperatures, the available charge is sometimes found to be reduced.

There are a number of documented causes for "phantom" drain, some of which are EV specific.
1) perhaps the most common is the user leaving on a regular climate schedule and forgetting about it. Each morning (and or evening) to prepare for commute departure time the car wakes up and warms the cabin and defrosts the screen, then, when departure time is passed, it shuts down again. If you are away for a couple of weeks, this can drain a battery down to the lowest point where the schedule will no longer run. If you arrived at the airport with enough charge to get home and then find that 10 or 20 or 30% has been consumed, it can be very annoying.
2) Tesla "sentry mode". The car stays awake, using its parking cameras to watch for any person or vehicle that might get close, and record them. The intention is to capture video footage or accidental or deliberate damage to catch the perpetrator after the event. Running the computer and cameras is expensive and over a number of days can drain the battery.
3) Checking to see the state of your car using a phone app. This one is also relevant to ICE cars. Checking to see if the car has moved, or changed battery state or is locked can wake the car up and prevent a deep sleep mode. In an EV where the 12v system can be charged direct from the traction battery without any intervention, it's generally not an issue. In EVs that can't recharge the 12v, or in ICE, this can cause the car to run low enough to fail to start.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks for all that Tobes. It helps me understand .👍👍
Our new kitchen kit is all WiFi compliant eg ovens, hobs, talking to extraction hood etc. We have the hive thing and have probably used it once. All great stuff but if we are not careful I may forget how to switch on the oven or lights😜
I thought most EVs protected the main battery from the things you mentioned. A bit like some of the independent PSUs in the caravan?

 

[Tobes]

Thanks for all that Tobes. It helps me understand .👍👍
Our new kitchen kit is all WiFi compliant eg ovens, hobs, talking to extraction hood etc. We have the hive thing and have probably used it once. All great stuff but if we are not careful I may forget how to switch on the oven or lights😜
I thought most EVs protected the main battery from the things you mentioned. A bit like some of the independent PSUs in the caravan?

Most of the computer kit is run from the 12V battery (heating being the obvious exception) but the 12V and HV (400V or 800V depending on the car) are closely linked. In some the 12V battery is only charged when the car is charging or running, in others its way more flexible and can stay topped up from the HV battery on demand.
"Protection" is an interesting word. In almost all cases, the "extra" systems (pre-heating, sentry mode, telemetry data) will shut down when the battery reaches a certain state (depends on manufacturer), but of course leaving these systems on is entirely user choice. The car makers give you enough rope to...

I think it's worth pointing out that in energy terms a car battery is HUGE. People tend to forget this fact. Driving takes an enormous amount of energy. Before I had a full EV, and ineeded before covid, when there was me working from home and the kids were all at school, our house used about 8 to 10 kWh of electricity a day. That is for cooking, kettles, lighting, running several computers, TVs, ironing - everything.
My Polestar battery is 75kWh usable. The latest version is 79kWh usable. That somewhere beween 7 and 10 days of total house load supported by the battery. The same energy you use to drive about 210 miles at motorway speeds - 3 to 4 hours of driving. (Of if you have a Tesla M3 - about 300 miles, 5-6 hours - they are very efficient)

Just for comparison, 1litre of diesel contains about 10kWh of energy (38MJ). It's incredibly energy dense. But 80kWh of diesel (8litres or 1.8 gallons) will only get you 108 miles in a car averaging 60mpg real world. ICE engines (even relatively efficient ones) are very inefficient. My last diesel (Volvo V60 D6) used to get 42MPG on a good run. The XC90 topped out at 32mpg... I hate waste, and with hindsight - this seems like pouring energy (and money) down the drain.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
Just for comparison, 1litre of diesel contains about 10kWh of energy (38MJ). It's incredibly energy dense. But 80kWh of diesel (8litres or 1.8 gallons) will only get you 108 miles in a car averaging 60mpg real world. ICE engines (even relatively efficient ones) are very inefficient. My last diesel (Volvo V60 D6) used to get 42MPG on a good run. The XC90 topped out at 32mpg... I hate waste, and with hindsight - this seems like pouring energy (and money) down the drain.

All drivers amongst us have lived through a period where energy principally from fossil fuels has been very cheap, and unless you have really looked scientifically at what efficiency means you won't appreciate how privileged you have been to have access to such abundance of fuel. We became blasie about it and were happy to waste so much simply becasue it was cheap and seemed plentiful

Climate change has begun to get the attention of Governments, and whilst the agenda for tackling that is still quite contentious, in addition the actions of some countries in trying to annex their next door neighbour's has destabilised the worlds fuel supplies and massively driven up energy prices. That hit most of us hard, and heightened our senses about ways of reducing reliance on such foreign supplies, and to look for ways of consuming less - in other word becoming more efficient. This not only reduces running costs but it also reduces the emissions which have accelerated climate change.

It happens to be very convenient that a litre of Diesel (and petrol is not to far away either) contains approximately 10kWh of energy. This makes rough comparisons quite easy and any one who compares the energy used by a vehicle for a journey and then looks at the energy put into the vehicle to power it can very quickly see how inefficient ALL internal combustion engines are especially compared to EV's.

Whilst there is no doubt that EV's presently don't have comparable range to the equivalent ICE vehicles per fill up or recharge, Most people do not drive more than 200miles or about 4 hours without needing a comfort break. So if you could recharge an EV to give about 200miles of range with a 5min connection to a charger, and there were enough such chargers available across the routes, there would be no range issues to argue about.

Ill paraphrase the old BR punch line "Maybe we'll get there"

 

[otherclive]

All drivers amongst us have lived through a period where energy principally from fossil fuels has been very cheap, and unless you have really looked scientifically at what efficiency means you won't appreciate how privileged you have been to have access to such abundance of fuel. We became blasie about it and were happy to waste so much simply becasue it was cheap and seemed plentiful

Climate change has begun to get the attention of Governments, and whilst the agenda for tackling that is still quite contentious, in addition the actions of some countries in trying to annex their next door neighbour's has destabilised the worlds fuel supplies and massively driven up energy prices. That hit most of us hard, and heightened our senses about ways of reducing reliance on such foreign supplies, and to look for ways of consuming less - in other word becoming more efficient. This not only reduces running costs but it also reduces the emissions which have accelerated climate change.

It happens to be very convenient that a litre of Diesel (and petrol is not to far away either) contains approximately 10kWh of energy. This makes rough comparisons quite easy and any one who compares the energy used by a vehicle for a journey and then looks at the energy put into the vehicle to power it can very quickly see how inefficient ALL internal combustion engines are especially compared to EV's.

Whilst there is no doubt that EV's presently don't have comparable range to the equivalent ICE vehicles per fill up or recharge, Most people do not drive more than 200miles or about 4 hours without needing a comfort break. So if you could recharge an EV to give about 200miles of range with a 5min connection to a charger, and there were enough such chargers available across the routes, there would be no range issues to argue about.

Ill paraphrase the old BR punch line "Maybe we'll get there"

During a recent holiday in Scotland my grandson was near to Stirling and the P&R had 70 chargers available. They weren’t ultra fast but I guess if you are in the city for work or shopping they don’t need to be. In fact he was quite impressed by the Scottish Government approach.

 

[otherclive]

Just been looking at two Chinese EV cars shortly due for sale here. The Seres3 and an SUV from Skywell. What I find surprising is the scale of the companies producing these cars. Skywell make cars, coaches/buses, trucks and 90 tonne mining trucks. They also make tourist guided buses for local sightseeing, and they don’t have a driver. Some portfolio of vehicles. When used EVs start to come on the market the Chinese ones will impact it in a substantial way.

New Seres 3 set to be the UK’s cheapest electric SUV | Auto Express

The incoming MG ZS EV rival from Seres gets a £29,995 starting price and 205-mile range

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

As a matter of interest I wonder if the EVs impact the natural environment? Animals can hear cars coming due to engine noise, but an EV is virtually silent so may be on top of them before they realise it is there? Just a thought!

 

[otherclive]

As a matter of interest I wonder if the EVs impact the natural environment? Animals can hear cars coming due to engine noise, but an EV is virtually silent so may be on top of them before they realise it is there? Just a thought!

Tyre noise must give a good indication of a vehicles arrival.

 

[Dustydog]

As a matter of interest I wonder if the EVs impact the natural environment? Animals can hear cars coming due to engine noise, but an EV is virtually silent so may be on top of them before they realise it is there? Just a thought!

Yes.
A report from the Guide Dogs Association found: Pedestrians with sight loss are 40% more likely to be hit by a quiet hybrid or electric car than one with a petrol or diesel engine.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Tyre noise must give a good indication of a vehicles arrival.

For quite a few years now some ICE vehicles engines are so well damped that the majority of the noise a vehicle makes is generated by the tyres rather than the engine or an exhaust note.

However the generation of tyre noise is very much speed related, and at slow town speeds EV's are notably quieter. This fact has been noted by safety experts and vehicle manufacturers are now fitting noise generators to vehicles to allow the to be heard.

I was quite amazed when my daughter turned on her Honda Jazz, and even though I was standing right next to the front n/s wing I could not hear it running.

My own PHEV does not have a sound generator, so at low speeds in towns or where there are a lot of people I am particularly aware of looking out for pedestrians who might not be aware when I'm close by.

This is not just an EV trait.

 

[otherclive]

Yes.
A report from the Guide Dogs Association found: Pedestrians with sight loss are 40% more likely to be hit by a quiet hybrid or electric car than one with a petrol or diesel engine.

That is one probably prowling around a supermarket car park, the EV that is.

 

[RogerL]

As a matter of interest I wonder if the EVs impact the natural environment? Animals can hear cars coming due to engine noise, but an EV is virtually silent so may be on top of them before they realise it is there? Just a thought!

There's enough "road kill" from IC vehicles so it's bound to go up as the use of EVs increases.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There's enough "road kill" from IC vehicles so it's bound to go up as the use of EVs increases.

Not necessarily, The bulk of noise that (standard) cars produce these days is tyre noise, Its likely EV's which are generally heavier than the equivalent ICE vehicles will produce more road noise by a few dB. I believe most wildlife collisions occur at night, and as most EV's have better lighting, the combination of noise and lights is going to give the wild life a better chance to be aware of the vehicle.

We must also factor in that most modern cars have more sophisticated collision avoidance systems which might spot larger animals like deer, and prevent a collision.

I don't think its a foregone conclusion that EV's are likely to be more prone to collisoins with animals, than the ICE that have gone before.

 

[otherclive]

Not necessarily, The bulk of noise that (standard) cars produce these days is tyre noise, Its likely EV's which are generally heavier than the equivalent ICE vehicles will produce more road noise by a few dB. I believe most wildlife collisions occur at night, and as most EV's have better lighting, the combination of noise and lights is going to give the wild life a better chance to be aware of the vehicle.

We must also factor in that most modern cars have more sophisticated collision avoidance systems which might spot larger animals like deer, and prevent a collision.

I don't think its a foregone conclusion that EV's are likely to be more prone to collisoins with animals, than the ICE that have gone before.

Our Saab 9000 was designed to deal with a moose/elk strike, whereas the first Mercedes A class had issues, which then led to ESC being introduced. So wildlife and humans benefitted. 🤣

 

[Dustydog]

Apparently most EVs have very low Coefficient of Drag . Less wind noise making them quieter.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Apparently most EVs have very low Coefficient of Drag . Less wind noise making them quieter.

The majority of noise from cars is generated by the tyres, not the body work, thus the CD is not the most significant factor in terms of noise.

 

[Buckman]

The majority of noise from cars is generated by the tyres, not the body work, thus the CD is not the most significant factor in terms of noise.

Somehow I doubt that most of the noise on cars comes the tyres? Most diesels can heard anytime of the day. Best time for anyone to check is a night when it is quiet and hearing aid is switched on.