towing small car with motorhome

[garywilson]

hi all,

Can anyone offer any help on this one,a good mate of ours has an ace firenza motorhome(big old thing)and he,s thinking of towing a mini on the back with a specially made frame has anyone any experience of this situation ? ie is it easy enough,practical,legal etc.Also how advisable is it to have a bike rack and back box fitted?

 

[rayc]

Gary, there are thousands of motor home owners doing it so it can't be illegal. They sell the bits to do it at all the shows. Every now and then the subject of the legality of the A frame they use to couple the car to the van comes up, and the fact that the towed car is an 'unbraked trailer' but the answer is a grey area or so it seems..

As far as bike carriers and boxes no problems as long as they use correct mountings etc and the rear axle rating is not exceeded.

Ray

 

[Gareth111278]

The other way to do it is with a small single axle car trailer , [search for Ifor Williams trailers] This is 100% legal, if the motor home has a decent overhang i expect the trailer could be 'hidden' under the rear whilst on site.

One could even make trailer sides to use it as a general trailer at other times.

Gareth

 

[rayc]

From www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18

Towing behind a motorhome. What you should know

If you are thinking of fitting a towbar to your motorhome, just check a couple of things before you start.

Firstly, do you actually have the spare capacity to do it? If your vehicle handbook does not list a towing limit, have a look at the VIN plate. This should give the Gross Train Weight (the largest figure) followed by the Maximum Gross Weight. Two other figures you would expect to see are Axle Weights. Deduct the MGW from the GTW and the difference would normally be your maximum towing limit.

Secondly, check the wheelbase of the vehicle (centre of front axle to centre of rear axle) and then measure the overhang (the distance from the centre of the rear axle to the extreme back). The overhang can go up to 60% of the wheelbase and the towbar needs to fit within this limit.

If your vehicle has an Al-Ko chassis, do not allow the fitter to drill extra holes for the towbar mounting. Your chassis warranty would be invalidated.

Braked versus unbraked

To tow without brakes on the trailer, the Maximum Gross Weight of that trailer must not exceed 750 kgs or half the Kerbside Weight of the towing vehicle, whichever is the least. Unbraked trailers must be clearly marked with the year of manufacture and their Maximum Gross Weight. If built after 1/1.97, they must have a secondary coupling fitted.

Braked trailers manufactured after 1968 must have brakes on all wheels. If built after October 1982, an hydraulically damped over-run coupling is required and, if built after April 1989, the trailer must have an auto-reverse brake mechanism which meets the efficiency laid down in EC directive 71/320. Additionally, braked trailers need to have a breakaway cable fitted which is capable of operating the handbrake mechanism if the trailer becomes detached from the towing vehicle, it is an offence not to use it and, it must be 'securely attached' to the towing vehicle. It is unlikely that merely looping round the towball would be considered a secure attachment!

'A' frames and Dollies

Q. What is a trailer?

A. A road vehicle, usually (but not necessarily) two wheeled, towed by a motor vehicle.Given the above dictionary definition, it is fairly clear that anything attached to the towball and having wheels in contact with the ground is a trailer. This includes cars on 'A' frames and dollies. Bearing in mind that the unbraked towing limit of 750 kgs refers to Maximum Gross Weight (i.e. the figure on the towed cars VIN plate) and not to actual weight, it severely restricts the options. The only cars I know of with a MGW of less than 750 kgs is the Aixam range. These are around 450 to 550 kgs.

There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked 'A' frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different. Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere.

Note that there is a very specific difference between recovery and transportation. Recovery is the removal of a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. It does not include removing a rotor arm (for instance) and travelling the length and breadth of the country. The police are well aware of the difference due to the regulations covering Tachographs and Operators Licences. Recovery vehicles are exempt.

It is well known that some countries in the EEC tend to overlook the regulations (the UK included) but some countries don't. The situation regarding enforcement could change at any time and, as a result, the only safe way to transport another vehicle behind a motorhome is on a car transporter trailer. Play safe! Don't take the risk!

The regulations which cover this aspect of towing are:-

91/438/EEC covers driving licences.

71/320/EEC covers auto reverse braking systems and couplings.

S.I. 1971 No 450 Part III covers the obstruction of number plates.

94/20/EEC covers type approval of towing equipment and 'S' and 'D' values.

95/48/EEC covers Masses and Dimensions of M1 class vehicles.

E.T.R.T.O. 1991 section 13 covers wheels and tyres.

BSAU 113c covers 50mm ball and coupling dimensions.

BSAU 24a (1989) covers eye couplings and pin/jaw arrangements.

98/12/EEC covers brake linings and will be implemented in the UK from 1/4/01.And not strictly towing but applicable to motorhomes is EN1648-1 covers extra low voltage installations in Leisure Vehicles and Caravans.

Disclaimer

The information in this guide is as accurate as the writer is able to make it, however, no responsibility can be accepted for any inaccuracies which may be in the text. It is the responsibility of any person wishing to depend on the facts to check for themselves with original documentation or any updating regulations, instruments or changes in the law. Interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts.

 

[SteveW77]

Ray C

Gary, there are thousands of motor home owners doing it so it can't be illegal.

Thousands of people break the speed limit every day, does that become legal as well?

Steve W

 

[Lutz]

I think Ray(c) modified his original response by the later one which spells out in detail what is and what is not legal. In short, towing a car for any appreciable distance without it being loaded on a trailer is illegal.

 

[Andrew._374353608]

From www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18

Towing behind a motorhome. What you should know

If you are thinking of fitting a towbar to your motorhome, just check a couple of things before you start.

Firstly, do you actually have the spare capacity to do it? If your vehicle handbook does not list a towing limit, have a look at the VIN plate. This should give the Gross Train Weight (the largest figure) followed by the Maximum Gross Weight. Two other figures you would expect to see are Axle Weights. Deduct the MGW from the GTW and the difference would normally be your maximum towing limit.

Secondly, check the wheelbase of the vehicle (centre of front axle to centre of rear axle) and then measure the overhang (the distance from the centre of the rear axle to the extreme back). The overhang can go up to 60% of the wheelbase and the towbar needs to fit within this limit.

If your vehicle has an Al-Ko chassis, do not allow the fitter to drill extra holes for the towbar mounting. Your chassis warranty would be invalidated.

Braked versus unbraked

To tow without brakes on the trailer, the Maximum Gross Weight of that trailer must not exceed 750 kgs or half the Kerbside Weight of the towing vehicle, whichever is the least. Unbraked trailers must be clearly marked with the year of manufacture and their Maximum Gross Weight. If built after 1/1.97, they must have a secondary coupling fitted.

Braked trailers manufactured after 1968 must have brakes on all wheels. If built after October 1982, an hydraulically damped over-run coupling is required and, if built after April 1989, the trailer must have an auto-reverse brake mechanism which meets the efficiency laid down in EC directive 71/320. Additionally, braked trailers need to have a breakaway cable fitted which is capable of operating the handbrake mechanism if the trailer becomes detached from the towing vehicle, it is an offence not to use it and, it must be 'securely attached' to the towing vehicle. It is unlikely that merely looping round the towball would be considered a secure attachment!

'A' frames and Dollies

Q. What is a trailer?

A. A road vehicle, usually (but not necessarily) two wheeled, towed by a motor vehicle.Given the above dictionary definition, it is fairly clear that anything attached to the towball and having wheels in contact with the ground is a trailer. This includes cars on 'A' frames and dollies. Bearing in mind that the unbraked towing limit of 750 kgs refers to Maximum Gross Weight (i.e. the figure on the towed cars VIN plate) and not to actual weight, it severely restricts the options. The only cars I know of with a MGW of less than 750 kgs is the Aixam range. These are around 450 to 550 kgs.

There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked 'A' frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different. Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere.

Note that there is a very specific difference between recovery and transportation. Recovery is the removal of a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. It does not include removing a rotor arm (for instance) and travelling the length and breadth of the country. The police are well aware of the difference due to the regulations covering Tachographs and Operators Licences. Recovery vehicles are exempt.

It is well known that some countries in the EEC tend to overlook the regulations (the UK included) but some countries don't. The situation regarding enforcement could change at any time and, as a result, the only safe way to transport another vehicle behind a motorhome is on a car transporter trailer. Play safe! Don't take the risk!

The regulations which cover this aspect of towing are:-

91/438/EEC covers driving licences.

71/320/EEC covers auto reverse braking systems and couplings.

S.I. 1971 No 450 Part III covers the obstruction of number plates.

94/20/EEC covers type approval of towing equipment and 'S' and 'D' values.

95/48/EEC covers Masses and Dimensions of M1 class vehicles.

E.T.R.T.O. 1991 section 13 covers wheels and tyres.

BSAU 113c covers 50mm ball and coupling dimensions.

BSAU 24a (1989) covers eye couplings and pin/jaw arrangements.

98/12/EEC covers brake linings and will be implemented in the UK from 1/4/01.And not strictly towing but applicable to motorhomes is EN1648-1 covers extra low voltage installations in Leisure Vehicles and Caravans.

Disclaimer

The information in this guide is as accurate as the writer is able to make it, however, no responsibility can be accepted for any inaccuracies which may be in the text. It is the responsibility of any person wishing to depend on the facts to check for themselves with original documentation or any updating regulations, instruments or changes in the law. Interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts.

Ray C thank you for the information you supplied the info on the dolly especially so as I sometimes tow one. As from April 2007 recovery drivers are now reuired to operate within the EEC Tacho rules.

All the Andrew.

 

[rayc]

Steve, perhaps I should have not said 'legal' but 'common practice'.

Any day on the M20 there are numerous combinations doing it and I have yet to hear of anybody being prosecuted.

As for speeding please do not go there!

Ray

 

[emmerson2]

Our local tyre depot also supplies and fits "A" frames, complete with cables etc which apply the trailed car brakes on overun. I believe this system is 100% legal.

 

[Lutz]

As the car brakes are applied through the brake pedal and the brake servo unit only works with the engine running, I cannot see how a cable connection between the motorhome and the trailed car is going to activate an overrun brake.

 

[Gareth111278]

I'd think that the overrun brakes on a towed car would operate the handbrake only, normaly just the rear wheels. it'd need adaptations to the car too.

one realy cool thing they do is put a 12N socket under the bonnet so the rear light on the car work with the tow vehicle lights. witha clip on number plate it looks tidy!

I'd recon this set up would be legal as its a braked trailer, don't try in in Europe though they are dead strict there ONLY recovery operators can 'flat tow' or use a 'Spec lift'

Just one thing from the long post above, Recovery vehicles are now subject to EC driver hours and Tachograph regs on journeys over 100kms radius from the vehicles base.

 

[emmerson2]

The system our local man uses operates the brake pedal on the towed car. I don't know how he overcomes the servo system, but I'll ask!

 

[Gareth111278]

Thats a good set up, its not a case over overcomming the servo. The brakes will work without it. If you push the pedal hard enough that is!

I'd recon that full servo assisted brakes would be too powerful in this situation anyway.

If i'm wrong and servo assistance is needed this could be provided 2 ways, either run a vacume hose from the vacume system on the tow vehicle [if its a deisel it'll have an exhauster driven off the engine]. This could be connected via a tyre valve type connection with a curly airline type hose.

The other way would be to use a 12volt exhauster of some type to provide the towed car with vacume.

care would need to be taken to ensure all hoses were non collapsable as we're using vacume here.

Gareth

 

[Lutz]

I still don't see how the setup described can provide any form of proportional control of braking performance. Surely it would, at best, be simply just off or on, which sounds a bit dodgy to me if the motorhome is just braking lightly.

 

[Gareth111278]

Hi Lutz

It would be proportional Just like your caravan, the harder you brake with the car the harder it pushes the coupling and the more it would press the brake pedal.

If the system was set up so that the corrct amount of effort was applied it'd work. I don't think much effort would be neeeded , hence my questioning weather the servo is needed, just enough to slow the additional mass of the car and stop it stepping out of line.

Gareth

PS just looking at ifor williams trailers now Small car trailer , single axle, would be about

 

[rayc]

Steve W, you said "Thousands of people break the speed limit every day, does that become legal as well"?

I would bet hundreds of speed traps are operated with only scant regard to the designated guidlines - does that make them legal?

Reported today ;

Police Investigate Rigged Speed Claims

Kent police officer suspended after claims roadside checks were rigged

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kent Police has launched an investigation into allegations of rigged roadside checks.

At least 120 speeding prosecutions have been dropped and an officer has been suspended in relation to the matter.

A spokeswoman told PistonHeads that the investigation is related to 'the way in which speed camera equipment was used on a particular occasion' but would not go into detail about where and when it happened.

The allegations surround how the equipment was used but Kent Police said it was 'an operative issue' and roadside checks could not be 'fixed' to show a higher speed.

The issue came to light following a court case that was discontinued.

The spokeswoman said: 'This led to a member of staff being suspended for reasons connected with the case, which related to one specific occasion.

'As a precaution, the decision was made to discontinue 120 prosecutions which were still pending at that time.

'Our investigation into this matter continues.

 

[Lutz]

Gareth,

When Emmerson mentioned a cable connection to apply the car brakes I thought he meant an electric cable. If that is the case and an electric system is to provide proportional braking, it would have to have a fairly sophisticated electronic control unit to convert the overrun pressure acting on the motor home into a variable signal to the actuator to operate the brake pedal. Somehow, I can't imagine it. It would be easier to have a mechanical Bowden cable but that would hardly be very reliable, especially as it would only provide a limited amount of travel in the cable which may either be not enough or too much to operate the brake pedal, depending on the actual conditions of each specific towed car. So, either way, I can't see how a cable operated actuator on the brake pedal is going to work reliably.

Besides, who can vouch for the actuator being installed and adjusted correctly? Most people refrain from working on the braking system of their car or caravan because of the safety issue involved, so any acuator on the brake pedal would have to be fitted by a trained mechanic, not by the owner of the motorhome.

Assuming that the dolly doesn't have any brakes and one is depending on the brakes on the rear wheels of the towed car alone, I can't see how one can achieve adequate braking performance for the dolly + car to be able to stop itself without assistance from the motorhome, so the whole idea is more than questionable to me.

 

[SteveW77]

Ray C.

The answer to your question is, no they probably are not legal, but nobody challenges them through the courts. However the police can and do prosecute people for towing illegaly, including garages that infringe the rules by towing down motorways instead of coming off at the first exit as the law directs. One of my fitters fell foul of that one.

Steve W

 

[RogerL]

There are specific provisions about towing broken down cars on dollys.

For other cars, towing on a dolly is illegal - all wheels must be braked.

I have seen A-frames which claim to operate the vehicles footbrake but like Lutz I'm very sceptical about the integrity of such arrangements.

There are lightweight car trailers around which comply fully with pan-European regulations so it's only a handful of cheapskate motorhomers that want to use A-frames, even if that compromises their own and other driver's safety.

 

[SteveW77]

There you go again RogerL, straight in with inflamatory comments.

Some motorhomers may not know that it is illegal, ( the whole reason for this thread ) some may not have space for a motorhome, car and then a trailer. Just for once try to give people the benefit of the doubt, or do you just enjoy being offensive.

Steve W

 

[RogerL]

The legality of A-frames gets debated regularly on every caravanning/motorhome forum/magazine so there's nothing new here.

Not having space for motorhome, trailer and car isn't good enough reason to ignore the law.

Using a car trailer is a simple, straight forward solution - it's cost is it's only drawback. Most motorhomes towing cars on illegal A-frames are large, expensive ones - the cost of a proper trailer would add little to their costs.

A motorhome towing an unbraked car is more dangerous than a motorhome towing a braked trailer with a car on.

How do you want me to dress reality up?

 

[SteveW77]

I don't want you to dress up reality at all, but why use terms lke cheapskate? your reply is well put without using offensive remarks. I have to say, that in essence I agree with your comments, but remember not every motorhomer buys magazines or join in on forums and could be driving around in blissfull ignorance.

Steve W

 

[colin(bridgend)]

A friend who is employed at a senior level by VOSA told me some while ago that to tow a car on an A frame behind a motor home is DEFINATELY illegal. They often have road side checks on commercial vehicles which includes motorhomes and have on several occassions prosecuted drivers of motorhomes towing small cars in this manner. A frames are only to be used for road side assistance/towing in the case of an emergency breakdown. The reason I was told this was when we had a motorhome I thought of towing a small Volkswagon behind it so asked for his advice prior to taking to the roads. the towing device must have some method of activating ALL brakes on the car as well as the over run device for reversing. He did not mention the problem of heavy breaking because of the servo not being in operation and I also being a lay person did not think of it.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

gentlemen please the question was has anyone got expierience of towing a car with a motorhome is it easy ,practical ,or legal,and how advisable is it to have a back box and cycle carrier fitted on the back.

right start with the back box and cycle carrier, "no problem" both these items are fiitted as standard on some motorhomes and after market kits are ready available on the open market.

now towing a mini, is it a new bmw one or a old leyland one, as there is a world of differance between the two. bmw one er? NO old one probably yes?.

why because of the way they are built.

as for legality??? now as long as certain criteria are met it is perfectly legal to tow a car with a motor home, why because the law says so.

the fact that it has 4 wheels on the ground is erelevent or horse boxes and twin axels would also be illigal,they aren't are they.

if the combined weight of the (now trailer) is below 750kg it does not have to have brakes it would however have to have a trailer board with lights, vehicle no plate, and red triangles,

some small cars easily fit into this weight catagory so no problem there.

steering some method allowing the front wheels to steer would also be needed this could be done by the use of a dolly or A frame but the keys would have to be left in so as to stop the steering lock operating.

also the combined weight of the motorhome and trailer would have to be below the max gross weight of the towing vehicle.

if all these critera are met there will be no legal issues to solve.

how do I know well I used to tow a fiesta with my VW LT 35 motor home on a home made dolly and never had a problem with johnny law in the 5 years I used it.

colin

 

[Lutz]

The heaviest unbraked load that one may tow is 750kg. I cannot imagine that the combined weight of any dolly to which even the lightest car is attached, would be below that limit.