Kerb Weight and Plate Upgrade

[Raywood]

While I accept that the 85% figure is low I would never suggest anyone goes over the 100% mark and for beginners probably 90% is better. Many people manage at higher figures but you cannot assess how it will go in an emergency, so being on the safe side is far better. The figure may be a bit outdated but no one has shown at what level a higher ratio works and indeed it must vary with a cars ability and the caravan attached.

 

[Buckman]

While I accept that the 85% figure is low I would never suggest anyone goes over the 100% mark and for beginners probably 90% is better. Many people manage at higher figures but you cannot assess how it will go in an emergency, so being on the safe side is far better. The figure may be a bit outdated but no one has shown at what level a higher ratio works and indeed it must vary with a cars ability and the caravan attached.

Surely the issue applies to al trailers and not just caravans. We all have seen horse boxes being towed by cars or SUVs and in many cases they are definitely over 100%. However a beginner displaying common sense and caution should easily manage 90-95% of kerbweight or Mass in service.
The first time I towed a caravan was with a Peugeot 404 and the caravan was definitely well over 100% as it was laden with beer and food enough for a month away. Stuck at about 50-55mph and no issues and the roads were not very good.

 

[RogerL]

It's simply not possible to assess an outfit's stability in ordinary conditions - the towing ratio affects how quickly an outfit will return to stability after a sudden large displacement sideways, or a sudden large swerve by the towcar.

 

[otherclive]

I doubt very much if, in retrospect, anyone would be able to establish any more with absolute certainty what was included in the caravan that was submitted for type approval and for which the MIRO is quoted. After all, the MIRO is no more than a generic value. It is much safer to rely on weighing the actual caravan. Only then does one know for sure what is on board and what isn’t.
The MIRO (Mass in Service) quoted for my car, for instance, is 85kg less than its actual weight.

Isn’t that precisely what I advocated in #95. There is absolutely no point in weighing to determine ex works, MIRO, or fully loaded, if you don’t know what is in the caravan. It’s not that difficult, or I never found it difficult to understand the concept. In one of my earlier posts I advise weighing empty and full then you know where you are. The OP must be totally confused by now.

 

[Lutz]

Isn’t that precisely what I advocated in #95. There is absolutely no point in weighing to determine ex works, MIRO, or fully loaded, if you don’t know what is in the caravan. It’s not that difficult, or I never found it difficult to understand the concept. In one of my earlier posts I advise weighing empty and full then you know where you are. The OP must be totally confused by now.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought you meant that one would have to know what was included in the MIRO of the caravan that was submitted for type approval. Of course one needs to know what is in any caravan that is weighed, but it will be well nigh impossible to find out now what was in the type approval caravan at the time it was type approved.

 

[Buckman]

OP's question was answered in post #2, but we now have 5 pages of waffling. LOL!

 

[Hutch]

OP's question was answered in post #2, but we now have 5 pages of waffling. LOL!

You are so correct
I filled my caravan up with everything I Normally take, weighed it on a scrap yard scales got a certificate. Removed 30 kg of "Stuff" and keep to that.
I bought the Reich run over scales and that agrees with the scrap yard scales but 20 kg below. So happy to discuss weight problems if stopped by authority's. At least I can show I am trying to be compliant.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Just out of curiosity, shouldn’t the dealer know what is included in my Swift Challenger MRO?

When we visited last week and sat down and asked for example if a gas bottle is included, I asked this very question, he then proceeded to look on his computer and told me there wasn’t anything.

I have since found out by looking at the Swift Handbook the LPG cylinder at a weight of 10kg and the leisure battery at 20kg, also includes elec cable and step are all included.

Does anyone find this odd that a sales person, probably selling them weekly, when asked this, should be able to provide correct info? Surely giving us the correct info would have helped us.

 

[otherclive]

Just out of curiosity, shouldn’t the dealer know what is included in my Swift Challenger MRO?

When we visited last week and sat down and asked for example if a gas bottle is included, I asked this very question, he then proceeded to look on his computer and told me there wasn’t anything.

I have since found out by looking at the Swift Handbook the LPG cylinder at a weight of 10kg and the leisure battery at 20kg, also includes elec cable and step are all included.

Does anyone find this odd that a sales person, probably selling them weekly, when asked this, should be able to provide correct info? Surely giving us the correct info would have helped us.

View attachment 5451

It would be nice if they did know but I would still want to see it in black and white from the Owners Manual. It used to be so simple when ex works weight or empty was quoted and all you had to worry about was adding load but not exceeding MTPLM. Personal Effects, etc etc mean zilch to me.

 

[Lutz]

Just out of curiosity, shouldn’t the dealer know what is included in my Swift Challenger MRO?

When we visited last week and sat down and asked for example if a gas bottle is included, I asked this very question, he then proceeded to look on his computer and told me there wasn’t anything.

I have since found out by looking at the Swift Handbook the LPG cylinder at a weight of 10kg and the leisure battery at 20kg, also includes elec cable and step are all included.

Does anyone find this odd that a sales person, probably selling them weekly, when asked this, should be able to provide correct info? Surely giving us the correct info would have helped us.

View attachment 5451

One has to be very careful in interpreting what MIRO refers to. It is, after all, not the actual weight of the caravan in question, but the weight of a caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. As stated above it is for a caravan in standard specification and does not therefore include any factory fitted options that your caravan may have.
It is unlikely that the dealer would know what was included in the caravan for which the MIRO was quoted and even if he did, it wouldn't be much help to you. Only the empty weight referred to above is of any use, not MIRO, and that can only be established by putting the caravan on a weighbridge.
The statement, "The user payload is the difference between the MTPLM (see below) and the MRO' is not strictly true. It should be the difference between the MTPLM and the actual empty weight, with an allowance for gas cylinders.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Fundamentally the concern is when the caravan is loaded and hitched to the tow vehicle, that it does not exceed any of the upper statutory load limits for the car or caravan. and that can only be assessed by measuring, not by calculating based on unconfirmed values like Kerbweight, MIRO or MIS.

The law will not be impressed if a vehicle is detected to be overloaded, and the driver tries to use the excuse of there being a difference between the published and real unloaded weight to explain the overload.

It doesn't matter what the published unloaded values are, you have to take whatever measures necessary to prevent exceeding the legal upper limits.

 

[Dustydog]

Fundamentally the concern is when the caravan is loaded and hitched to the tow vehicle, that it does not exceed any of the upper statutory load limits for the car or caravan. and that can only be assessed by measuring, not by calculating based on unconfirmed values like Kerbweight, MIRO or MIS.

The law will not be impressed if a vehicle is detected to be overloaded, and the driver tries to use the excuse of there being a difference between the published and real unloaded weight to explain the overload.

It doesn't matter what the published unloaded values are, you have to take whatever measures necessary to prevent exceeding the legal upper limits.

Technically Prof I can’t fault the comments. In the real world has anyone ever been challenged by the law as you allude to ?
Touch wood I’ve never been stopped and asked these questions.
Has anyone on here ever been stopped and quizzed?
I assume we all know the loadings regs etc.

 

[Lutz]

Technically Prof I can’t fault the comments. In the real world has anyone ever been challenged by the law as you allude to ?
Touch wood I’ve never been stopped and asked these questions.
Has anyone on here ever been stopped and quizzed?
I assume we all know the loadings regs etc.

I have been stopped by the powers-that-be once. They only measured all axle loads (those of the car and of the caravan). They didn't require the caravan to be unhitched so basically they only checked whether the outfit was within the gross train weight limit and the car within its GVW and not whether the caravan exceeded its MTPLM.
It would be unusual for the police or whoever to check against the MTPLM. It simply takes to long because the caravan needs to be unhitched to do so and then rehitched again afterwards.

 

[otherclive]

Technically Prof I can’t fault the comments. In the real world has anyone ever been challenged by the law as you allude to ?
Touch wood I’ve never been stopped and asked these questions.
Has anyone on here ever been stopped and quizzed?
I assume we all know the loadings regs etc.

Only recently and 17 other times over the years I have described how I was overtaken by a police motorcyclist and had to follow him to a checkpoint manned by police and DVSA or whatever they were at that time. (DOT) It was near Ringwood and a Government weighbridge. Car and caravan were inspected and outfit weighed. All were found to be okay.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Technically Prof I can’t fault the comments. In the real world has anyone ever been challenged by the law as you allude to ?
Touch wood I’ve never been stopped and asked these questions.
Has anyone on here ever been stopped and quizzed?
I assume we all know the loadings regs etc.

I did not say the authorities would quiz you about unloaded weights, I tried to show that if you were caught over limit, they would not be interested in any excuses that arose from errors in unloaded weights.

But as the two previous posts report, the answer is yes caravanners have been stopped and weight checked. When you hear of some police forces setting up checks for caravans on popular holiday routes, axle load checks would be one of the main activities.

In most caravan cases it's move some items from caravan to car and a warning. But don't assume its always going to be that lenient.

If there were serious infringements the authorities might dig deeper and check the caravans weight against its MTPLM and tow hitch S values.

Most HGV drivers will tell you how the thorough the authorities can be, and in some cases each infringement detected on a vehicle can have licence points attached to it.

 

[Buckman]

The battery is not included in the MIRO as that weight comes out of the user payload.

 

[otherclive]

The battery is not included in the MIRO as that weight comes out of the user payload.

Post #108 by the OP shows a photo of the handbook which clearly states the battery isn’t in MIRO. It’s Personal Effects payload.

 

[Buckman]

Post #108 by the OP shows a photo of the handbook which clearly states the battery isn’t in MIRO. It’s Personal Effects payload.

I am aware of that however if you read the third sentence, it gives the impression that the poster thinks the gas and battery are included. The gas is up to 10kg, but not the battery.

 

[otherclive]

I am aware of that however if you read the third sentence, it gives the impression that the poster thinks the gas and battery are included. The gas is up to 10kg, but not the battery.

Agreed, this thread is going round in circles isnt it and it’s not that difficult. Best answer is weigh the loaded van on a weighbridge. Hopefully not duplicating one of my mistakes of overloading a MTPLM of 1000 kg by almost 240kg. Very careful drive home from Brecon to Wiltshire 😱

 

[Lutz]

Frankly, whether the battery is included in the MIRO or not is relatively unimportant. The 20 or so kilos difference is a lot less than possible variance in actual weight from a published MIRO so the weight of the battery is neither here nor there.
The MIRO is nothing more than a rough guide. It cannot be relied upon as an accurate value for your particular caravan.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

I would say the MRO includes 10kg for the LPG bottle and PE (Personal Effects) of 20kg for the battery.

Am I wrong turn in saying the battery isn’t included in the MRO?

 

[Buckman]

I would say the MRO includes 10kg for the LPG bottle and PE (Personal Effects) of 20kg for the battery.

Am I wrong turn in saying the battery isn’t included in the MRO?

View attachment 5463

It is confusing the way it is written, but the way I read it is that the battery is not included in MIRO and is part of personal effects. A reasonable battery for that size of caravan would weigh about 25kg.

 

[Dustydog]

The MIRO has never included a Leisure Battery in its calculation

 

[Lutz]

Each manufacturer has his own interpretation of what is included in the MIRO because the regulations are a bit vague and poorly worded relating to caravans. In particular, the statement in post #121 above that the fresh water tank, toilet flush tank and the water heater are empty is contrary to the definition of MIRO in the regulations. They specify that all tanks are full and I do know that other manufacturers quote their MIROs accordingly.

 

[otherclive]

It can be so confusing as some caravans with powered self levelling systems do include the battery in MIRO. Why in earth having full tanks in MIRO is beyond me.
As far as the OP is concerned his MIRO does not include a battery if the Owners Manual is to be believed. Crikey it’s difficult.